Potassium Permanganate usage

[craniac24]

I finally picked up some PP for future use in quarantine procedures, however, I wanted to give it a test run first just to make sure everything worked the way it was supposed to before ever attempting to use it on my fish. I took a piece of driftwood and put it into a 20gal container and dosed the PP at the consensus recommended level of 2mg/L. After about 3 hours, I saw the water turn from pinkish/purple to brown (so far so good).

However, I then added hydrogen peroxide expecting the water to become "crystal clear" as I had read would happen after adding it. Unfortunately, all the HP did was make the water less brown. I added only a capful at a time, and did so slowly, but when all was said and done I'm pretty sure I added more than enough HP to neutralize the PP.

If anyone with experience using PP has any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong, I'd appreciate it.

[grelot]

you need to have a good water agitation in order to make the HP very efficient. If you put an airstone and you drop the HP right over the airstone you will have better results and you will need less HP. Put some HP and wait 5 minutes before to add another.

For a 90 gallons I need about 2 to 3 caps of HP to neutralize the PP

[RyanH]

Even after neutralizing the PP you'll still likely need to do a water change or two before your water clears up completely.

[raglanroad]

Grelot, good idea. the hp dissipates so fast, before it can get to everthing perhaps?
BTW, Jimmy has method of using PP on his WC system, and everything turns crystal clear, with precipitate on the bottom, if I remember.
Dave

[craniac24]

The airstone idea might be something to consider, but its strange...I definitely added more than 2 or 3 capfuls, and I was only using a 20 gallon bucket.

On a side note....no more algae/crud/slime on my driftwood!

[brewmaster15]

Joe,
If you tried the experiment with just clean water +PP , then neutralize with peroxide you should be seeing clear water... usually 3 mls of peroxide is sufficient with agitation/aeration for a 30 gal tank .. This peroxide is the common over the counter stuff...03% I think..not the 3% food gradestuff.

when you see the PP turn from purple to brown...its reacting with organics.. when you neuralize PP treated water that was high in organics with peroxide..these organic residues will add an off color to the water.

If you are using PP to treat a disease Its always best to start with clean water, and minimize the organic load..if the PP goes from purple to yellowish brown real fast...too much junk is in the water and its not going to effectively treat its target organism.

After treatment many will do a 50%-75% water change.

Becareful when using the peroxide... too much and you will cause alot of damage to the fishes slimecoat and gills..something that you don't want to do after already doing that with the PP.

-al

[kaceyo]

If I understand it correctly the PP is already used up by the time the water is no longer purple. The HP would be used to neutrilize the PP when the purple color is still visable in case the fish are stressing over the treatment. Is that right? So after the purple is gone no HP is needed, only a waterchange? And isn't the brown color most likely the oxidized wood in the water that won't clear up? I'd also like to try PP sometime and want to have all this down first. Very good idea to do some test runs first.

Kacey

[grelot]

the first time I tried PP there was no airstone and I had to put three times the amount of HP that I use now with an airstone

[tcfish]

I would like to stress this point that pp is deadly at a high PH ,dont use over7.6

[Green Country Discus]

Thought I would make a few comments on PP use. I am far from an expert on its use but thought I would comment on some of my experiences. I would not recomend that it be used by anyone without much research on its use beforehand. JMHO but it seems that there is a general unwillingness of the true experts to share their opinions and experiences on PP use with Discus. Most comments are vague at best. I have found that using with water reciently treated with Prime or other dechlorinators causes the PP to turn brown prematurly and also does not clear up well with HP. Under these circumstances, it is easy to continue adding PP to maintain a purple color and end up with an overdose. Dosage is based on maintaining a light purple color to the water. As organics are neutralized, the color will turn brown like tea and more PP is added in small amounts to keep a purple color. As far as getting HP to neutralize the PP, use of your hand to fan water from one end of the tank to the other will give almost instant results. I use the same method when adding the PP to mix evenly. Remove all filter media, sponges before treating. Ariation is important while treating. Stress shown by fish being treated are similar to oxygen depleation. Our PH is 7.6 and have never lost a fish while treating. You also must watch the treated tank continuously for signs of stress. The weaker fish will show stress first and when fins clamp , its time to neturalize. This can happen in as little as 30 minutes. I have read that 4 hours is the treatment time but I have never exceeded 3 hours with a treatment. Overuse of PP on fish will cause permanent gill damage and as noted by Al, HP will do the same. I must admit that its use sounds dangerous and it is. However it is great for sanatizing storage tubs, general cleanup on fish, used infrequently, and as a cleanup on breeding tank and pair when first set up. I have noticed without exception, that after a treatment with PP, Discus display an outward feeling of wellbeing. I would love to hear some input from others.

[Greg Richardson]

Thanks Andrew for your observations.
I agree that many are very vague.
That fact they are I think keeps some from trying it.

I'd love to see a general outline of doses like for a 55 gallon tank as that seems to be a very popular size.

Since all sponge filters be out the only other space taken up would be heater and airstones.

I'm not sure having never done it.

The difference in amount of clean water in each others tanks that disallows general guidelines is my guess in how it effects dosage.

Good to have at least a starting point.

[RyanH]

Andrew hit alot of things right on the mark, IMO. Make sure that you only treat when you are able to spend a good 3-4 hours giving your tank nearly constant attention.

Also, I prefer to mix up a stock solution for easier dosage. Here is how I've done it in the past:

1. I use a 1 liter bottle of purified water.

2. My gram scale is broken and I haven't replaced it yet so I mixed in 10 level teaspoons of PP per Liter (a teaspoon is very close to 7.0 grams of PP). This will give a concentration very close to the recommended 71.25 grams/ liter.

3. I change nearly all of the water in my tank and wipe everything down to minimize the organic load of the tank.

4. I then add the stock solution at a rate of 2 drops per gallon.

5. I allow the active solution to sit in my tank for 4 hours. If the water turns brown, I'll add a small amount of PP to keep it active for the full 4 hours.

6. I will then change nearly all of the water again or do two large water changes over a 24 hour period

This is by no means an exact dosage and care should be taken when doing this yourself. It has worked well for me but the results of others may vary.

I've heard of people adding PP to their tanks at much higher dosages, meaning triple the normal dosage, and allowing it to sit for less time but I don't have any experience with that and can't recommend it from personal experience.

Here is a pdf file that I like to reference when treating with PP:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA02700.pdf

hth
-Ryan

[Green Country Discus]

Ryan and Greg, Thank you for your input!!!

[Greg Richardson]

Ryan. Number 3. Bingo imo if how I understand this stuff.
I think that is the key to starting this process right with best shot at success.

[pcsb23]

Just a word of caution here, if you have clown loaches in your tank remove them before treating with PP, they seem to be very sensitive to it, if they need treating use half dose of PP and for less time, max 2hrs.
Paul.