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Re:My experiences with crossing wilds
Hi Beth,
Good question, but I have to say crossing a bd to a wild green(P = bd x wg) will most likely result in an up hill battle when you have to regain the original bd chatacteritics in the later Fs. Again, depending on the stability of the male's genes, your f2 segregation may result in very few bd looking frys. I say "bd looking frys" only because this cross will most likely be unstable and your throw back rates of wild green will dominate most of the time. Sorry to say, I do not think much of this cross, if your intent is to have more bd frys, but the bright side is that who ever bred the f1, did maintain hybrid vigor and that is good. IMO you will see much more brown/green/reddish frys than bds. Then again I may be wrong and you might have tons of bd looking frys in your f2s. That's the beauty, wonder and heartache of breeding any livestock. One tip I'd like to leave with you is : Regardless of what your f2s look like, you can always pick the features you want from that group and back cross it to one of the Ps(the one with the features you like most) going into f3. When you breed, it's very important to know the genetic value of the breeders. If you don't, then it becomes a gamble( most times you lose).hth.
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Re:My experiences with crossing wilds
Runner, Tan Chee lok is the breeder. But you hasd the cross--backwaords. It is Wild Green X Blue diamond. also Beth is not attempting to get more BD's--I believe she is happy with the fish as it is just like Christmas! Everyone is different as I had said. These fish are extremely hardy. I have a story to illustrate this.
My wife and I were putting the WG X BD away from a shipment. She inadvertantly, nudged a bucket full of these fish behind a row of tanks. They had alredy persevered over 50 hours in the bag enroute!
Three days later , while looking for a siphon hose that apparantly fell behind the tanks, I saw the six fish in the bucket. To put it realistically, I saw the bags as the water was so gray, I just knew they had to be dead! I was ranting--but then sanity prevailed. I said" Next time we are putting fish away--kindly acount for them all' She grabbed the bag---opened it up despite my objections and they were alive. We put them in an empty tank and they actually ate the next day! What are the odds a fish can withstand 5 days in a bag??? Joe
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Re:My experiences with crossing wilds
WOW! Now that is a story of discus toughness. Great thread.
Don ;D
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Re:My experiences with crossing wilds
Beth, Many times , the green discus is used to improve the red! Doesn't sound right does it? I think you will experience more red F2's.
Runner, sorry, i disagree with you. I believe most of the new strains were developed by fluke! Sure , there are alot of geneticists working in the field--but for the most part---looking for the next hot strain is a matter of tossing everyone in the community tank and hoping for the best.
In 2001, Julia Mann gave a lecture on Discus genetics. At least half of the contingency present for the awards banquet rose up and walked out! As gentleman, they paused before laughing in the hallway.
i like the Christmas theory--It served Beth well. She ha s gorgeous fish that anyone would be envious of! This is a testament to her Discus skills. Her fish are fantastic to say the least!!!! Joe
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Re:My experiences with crossing wilds
Joe, Beth,
lol, yep, got the cross backward and I humbly stand corrected on my call. My analysis of the cross is based on what I can see in the pics, under those circumstances, I gave it my best shot. Anyway, I'm glad that Beth is looking for the red traits and hopefully it'll go her way. Those fish sure have nice shape .
One thing though, of all the pics that I saw, there are at least 3 different types generated by this cross. I would suspect that with a wider sampling, this batch maybe more varied. If that is the case, I would be interested to know if you know the fixation rate on any of the f1 types if one were to try and fix any of the desired traits?
Also very curious as to why Tan would intentionally name his fish a (wg x bd) and would commercilise(sell) an f1 that is so varied. Very unAsian don't you think? he,he, btw, a very good setup.
As for the genetics part, there is a distinct difference between just "lecturing it" and practical application through years of hand-on experience. My point being, most fish farmers are not even college educated, but yet they "know" how traits can be matched in certain permutation to better their chances of success. They say, experience is the best teacher here may lie the proof.
Sorry for such a belaboring post, it's really not my style, but thanks anyway for reading. Remember this, Joe, I'm still your fan. Peace. ;D ;D ;D
And Beth, I'm also your fan , he,he,he. (j k) now can I be first in line when you get some of those frys, please???
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Re:My experiences with crossing wilds
There is a small side track to the you pay for what you get theory.
Regardless of price, if your getting fish that are from a fairly closed system you can be pretty confident of the genes/traits that your dealing with. Short of going over and collecting fish yourself you have to rely on the person selling you fish.
People like Oliver who collect their own fish can probably come as close to being able to give you the bloodline of the fish your buying. That sort of qaulity/information is very rarely cheap.
So if your planning on doing the wild thing or your breeding in wilds into your domestic strain price doesnt mean squat. Anyone can claim they are selling Tefe RSGs and charge you an arm and a leg for them. There are very few people that you can count on when you shell out those body parts. Oliver being one of those people.
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Re:My experiences with crossing wilds
Joe,
lol, "un..A"..loved that. I do envy you, getting all those new "setup" strains from Tan Chee Lok. I'd give my right arm to be in your shoes, needless to say, I'm also a fan of the Tans(including his uncle, you know who I'm talking about)..he,he,he. Take care.
Roger,
I couldn't have said it better.
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Re:My experiences with crossing wilds
Beth, I think it would be a long time to lose the striations in these fish. Even with the crossing, Blue Diamond X Wg X BD, IMO, the blue diamond strain would be genetically recessive. maybe at F3 you might get some Blue Diamonds with a bit of pattern or striations and bar through the eye. To remove the striations, I believe a golden ghost should be used. Even this would take time--but what the hell---you are young and have the time.
( called Full Color ) I think these fish are extremely strong ( evidenced above ) and have a good future for further crossings. If it were me, I would place two like fish together and improve what is already there and call it the Beth Diamond ;D Joe
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Re:My experiences with crossing wilds
Beth, I think it was I that misunderstood your post. I did not keep any for myself. I only have them at three inches now. I think if you had one that was similar, the chances of getting a few by selective breeding may be good. At F3 it would even be greater. Joe
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Re:My experiences with crossing wilds
Thanks Joe.....
Beth
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