Convince me barebottom can look great

[brewmaster15]

If I'm going to do all this work to raise discus, I will start with the best stock. I put them into old, used, often beat up, tanks with a heater and a sponge filter to produce spectacular beautiful discus tanks.

lmao.. we are two peas in a pod Willie.

[Tshethar]

I have come to appreciate that there are different ways to approach the hobby.

I kept reef tanks in the 90s but haven't done salt water for 20 years now. Getting out of that corresponded in part with not having the budget for an expensive hobby that seemed to require an endless array of new gear, but I can also appreciate the fun of figuring some of that stuff out. (It was pretty rudimentary back then.) I admit, though, that the habit of tinkering with equipment could carry over in ways that could cause trouble if poorly applied to the discus hobby. It may well be that there are some things to “unlearn.”

In my case, I found that some of what I imagined might help seemed less useful than I thought. For example, I put in a purigen reactor as insurance to ensure good water quality in between frequent water changes, but then found out the discus didn't like my tap water to begin with. What they really needed was pre-filtration. So, the reactor wasn’t a problem, but it didn’t seem to really matter that much, and I had to spend more money elsewhere. Moreover, the driftwood leeched tannins the purigen then picked up, so the reactor ended up needing service despite not really pulling fish waste out of the water (since I kept up with WCs). Servicing and recharging it was a pain and while it never leaked, I worried that someday it might, so I ended up removing it.

Still, I get the impulse to experiment and sometimes it's fun. I think a certain amount of automation and "tech" can really help and even you guys with just the old BB tanks and sponge filters would probably confess to using something like a temperature controller, right?

In my case, anything that would make it easier to change water is something I would welcome. If I am ever able to have a fish room, I am going to have a way of using stuff like sprinkler timers and solenoids, pumps, stable plumbing, etc., to be able to fill and drain tanks without having to drag a hose to each one. (I will probably be 65 before this can happen, and I like the idea of keeping it sustainable for a long time.)

Additionally, I've run UV before and while it's debatable what it might do (or not do) for fish health, it definitely improves water clarity. For a display tank in the living/dining room, that counts for something. (I'm currently playing with a way to run my python through it when I add new water to the tank so that I might catch anything out of the tap that makes it through my prefilter...)

I have also seen some people using some gear in sumps and such that I like and wouldn't hesitate to do if I was running one and had some extra cash. (One example is the automatic filter rollers—would probably use one if I had a large display tank with a sump.)

If it feels like it helps protect the investment and isn't overly complex, then I say go for it, especially if you already have it, it gives you peace of mind, and/or it’s fun and isn’t likely to cause harm or neglect. Just be prepared to change course if or when you need to, keep an open mind, and see what seems to matter to the fish.

[Raul-7]

I'm with Tom on this one. When someone starts a conversation with me about "I've been keeping reef tanks for decades and I love to try discus...", my heart just sinks. Reef tanks and discus tanks are complete opposites. Once you set up a reef tank, success depends on leaving it alone and just looking at it. Discus requires huge feedings followed by huge cleanings. It's like raising hogs; slop them down, hose it out, repeat. Automation doesn't lend itself to the latter. Discus is not an ideal species unless you can commit a lot of time.

I've repeated this multiple times; I'm not a Reef keeper. I stated that I respect their dedication and avoidance of shortcuts when choosing equipment. Most FW hobbyists try to be as cheap as possible [nothing wrong with that]. I have a long background in breeding Hypancistrus sp. and I understand the importance of proper care.

I understand that most of you are against automation, but why do you correlate automation with lack of proper care? In fact, an Apex can make an experienced fish hobbyist avoid making mistakes and keep monitoring all their parameters. It can avoid fatal errors like overheating, heater gone bad, pumps not working, etc.


Not sure why you have a phobia/hatred of automation when it's saved people countless of hours and potential disasters.

[Willie]

...I understand that most of you are against automation, but why do you correlate automation with lack of proper care? In fact, an Apex can make an experienced fish hobbyist avoid making mistakes and keep monitoring all their parameters. It can avoid fatal errors like overheating, heater gone bad, pumps not working, etc.

Not sure why you have a phobia/hatred of automation when it's saved people countless of hours and potential disasters...

Not a phobia, nor hatred of automation. But in reality, most people go to automation to reduce their workload and invariably paying attention to their fish. Automated water changes are better than none, but do not achieve the water quality improvement with 100% water changes. Heaters will occasionally go bad, but automation is not a replacement for checking your water daily. The most advanced discus hobbyists will tell you that the most important activity is to sit and watch your fish daily. Doing so will save people countless hours and potential disasters more effectively than a set-it and leave-it system.

[Zeus Discus]

I've repeated this multiple times; I'm not a Reef keeper. I stated that I respect their dedication and avoidance of shortcuts when choosing equipment. Most FW hobbyists try to be as cheap as possible [nothing wrong with that]. I have a long background in breeding Hypancistrus sp. and I understand the importance of proper care.

I understand that most of you are against automation, but why do you correlate automation with lack of proper care? In fact, an Apex can make an experienced fish hobbyist avoid making mistakes and keep monitoring all their parameters. It can avoid fatal errors like overheating, heater gone bad, pumps not working, etc.


Not sure why you have a phobia/hatred of automation when it's saved people countless of hours and potential disasters.

Well, I'm not against automation. It can be useful. BUT, why are you so argumentative when you have never even kept discus? Ive read a bunch of these threads now and you act like you know better than guys keeping Discus successfully for ages. Needs be said by someone. maybe you should get discus and then show everyone how well your way would work. I participate in alot of forums and nothing bristles the regulars more than a novice that comes on to tell them how to do something better. Just telling it like it is. I don't mean this in in a bad way...but its getting old.

If using Apex is that big a deal and doing things automated floats your boat.. just do it. Get a tank,get some discus, and show people that it works for you. But don't discount the experience of many discus keepers llike Willie and Brewmaster.

[Iminit]

Lol I’m not cheap . These automated systems have been around for awhile. Getting more automated and more expensive as they go. So being said where are the automated discus keepers? Facebook is loaded with discus keepers but I never see anyone with an automated system. Why? Raul you may be on to something. The next big thing bio-home, cold water discus and now automated systems for discus .

[brewmaster15]

Can always count on water change methodology to stir up a debate. I dont care too much on whether its automated or not... if it helps change the water I'm good with it.

I have a fairly automated system. Cat gets me by up 4 am.. I get up..plug in my coffee percolator, grab a mug of Java and walk downstairs. Drain ,drink coffee, check messages...fill ..repeat. Electronics may fail.. Dante never fails to wake me up and start the automation

[Iminit]

Like

[fljones3]

Love it, Al.

[Raul-7]

Well, I'm not against automation. It can be useful. BUT, why are you so argumentative when you have never even kept discus? Ive read a bunch of these threads now and you act like you know better than guys keeping Discus successfully for ages. Needs be said by someone. maybe you should get discus and then show everyone how well your way would work. I participate in alot of forums and nothing bristles the regulars more than a novice that comes on to tell them how to do something better. Just telling it like it is. I don't mean this in in a bad way...but its getting old.

If using Apex is that big a deal and doing things automated floats your boat.. just do it. Get a tank,get some discus, and show people that it works for you. But don't discount the experience of many discus keepers llike Willie and Brewmaster.

I never discounted their experience or offended them in any way.

It just bothers me when people want to correlate automation with 'set-and-forget' and 'carelessness'. It is NOT. It makes your life easier, but it does negate daily care. Nobody made that claim that it did. But somehow it keeps getting spinned as Oh, you automate - means you're a careless fishkeeper.

And just because I've not kept Discus, does not mean I'm suddenly going to forget all forms proper fish husbandry or panic when I get them. I've kept sensitive fish before like blackwater Gourami's who are a lot harder to care for than Discus. Discus are not some glass species like Seahorses, etc. or other species that need a live diet, special water parameters, etc. Most of the ones we keep are tank-bred and are much hardier than their wild counterparts. They just need pristine water [low nitrates, low DOCs, etc.], high temperatures, good oxygenation, and good quality food. It's not rocket science.

[brewmaster15]

I never discounted their experience or offended them in any way.

It just bothers me when people want to correlate automation with 'set-and-forget' and 'carelessness'. It is NOT. It makes your life easier, but it does negate daily care. Nobody made that claim that it did. But somehow it keeps getting spinned as Oh, you automate - means you're a careless fishkeeper.

And just because I've not kept Discus, does not mean I'm suddenly going to forget all forms proper fish husbandry or panic when I get them. I've kept sensitive fish before like blackwater Gourami's who are a lot harder to care for than Discus. Discus are not some glass species like Seahorses, etc. or other species that need a live diet, special water parameters, etc. Most of the ones we keep are tank-bred and are much hardier than their wild counterparts. They just need pristine water [low nitrates, low DOCs, etc.], high temperatures, good oxygenation, and good quality food. It's not rocket science.

Raul,
I don't recall anyone accusing you of being a careless fishkeeper . Likewise I dont think you implied not using an automated system makes others a careless fish keeper.

It doesnt matter if you automate or manually do it. . if the fish gets good care thats all that matters.


In defense here I will say you arent the first person that came here with alot of ideas on discus care as a novice. There has been a few really hot threads over these...understand that many of us have done just about everything wrong you can and we try to help people not make those initial mistakes even if that novice would rather we didn't. You can take or leave advice you get here, I hope you take most of it to heart.. but if not thats fine too.


I hope discus are in your future soon and you can test what you think you know about them against what we do know about them from experience. I'd like to see you succeed here.

Al

[Vanman]

The only thing I automate are the room lights. That timer failed yesterday. Water changes are done with valves on drilled tanks after I siphon the bottom. The siphon is started with a drill powered pump. Water is pumped to the tanks from spare aquariums that I age water in. It will get easier after I get a real water aging tank. It will be refilled with a float valve. Easy peasy.

[Raul-7]

Raul,
I don't recall anyone accusing you of being a careless fishkeeper . Likewise I dont think you implied not using an automated system makes others a careless fish keeper.

It doesnt matter if you automate or manually do it. . if the fish gets good care thats all that matters.


In defense here I will say you arent the first person that came here with alot of ideas on discus care as a novice. There has been a few really hot threads over these...understand that many of us have done just about everything wrong you can and we try to help people not make those initial mistakes even if that novice would rather we didn't. You can take or leave advice you get here, I hope you take most of it to heart.. but if not thats fine too.


I hope discus are in your future soon and you can test what you think you know about them against what we do know about them from experience. I'd like to see you succeed here.

Al

Thank you Al.

Exactly; none is better than the other. Everyone is free to choose as long as the fish get the optimum care they deserve.


And no, I'm not an expert at Discus. Far from it. But I'm confident in my knowledge and experience. I've bred Hypancistrus sp., Apistogramma sp., etc. I've dealt with all the highs and lows most of us have seen.

Definitely, I will stick around and if I need help - I'll be the first to say I was wrong.

[bluelagoon]

Aesthetics comes to mind for me. I've always kept aquariums in the living room. I could not handle looking at the hoses and pipes; looks awful. They might look ok in the basement and out of sight. But not out where folks can see them. Plus I would think that a lot more water be used in automatic WC's to accomplish the same amount changed by hand.

[Iminit]

My problem with auto water changers is they are adding and removing off the top. So aren't you removing the water you just put in? Next if it’s a planted tank with substrate how are you vacuuming the substrate?