Breeding discus with only 2 tanks ?

[fljones3]

I would never put a fish with white feces back into a community tank. FWIW.
Go with Al’s advice.

[Bart_NL]

I would prefer if you moved the report back to where i posted it, if i may say so ?

[brewmaster15]

I would prefer if you moved the report back to where i posted it, if i may say so ?

Bart, you've posted this issue in multiple threads now..Its not easy to help people when thats done. I have combined the threads to best help you... its not something I can undo.

The real question is what are you going to do about your fishes health issue. I am getting the feeling you don't agree with the advice given so far. ..which is your right.Just trying to help you here.

[Bart_NL]

The real question is what are you going to do about your fishes health issue. I am getting the feeling you don't agree with the advice given so far. ..which is your right.Just trying to help you here.

I have this gut feeling the cause at this point is just stress, they looked unhappy in this tank since day 1, totally unlike the pair in the tank next to them who seem to enjoy the privacy of this white cubicle.

You mention Cryptobia but that should normally be covered by the octocil treatment, I am not going to put them through that again without a good reason so I have just ordered myself a microscope, seeing is believing and the next piece of white feces I find I am going to take a closer look at myself. I learned how to as a kid, never too old to learn more.

It has a smartphone adapter so I can make pictures of my findings and send them to the breeder, he offered his help and 20 years of experience but I need to take the initiative he is always busy and unfortunately had to close shop recently...

I seem to have triggered something by giving them chopped mussels yesterday (i do keep trying) that got her interested so I saw her searching for food for the first time in weeks this morning ?

[brewmaster15]

Bart,
Theres a misconception out there that Cryptobia can be cured .. at this point.I dont know of any medication that cures it.. There are treatments that lower the parasite numbers.

From the article I linked..

"Treatment for a Cryptobia iubilans infestation is considered more difficult, and current recommendations are based on laboratory experimental trials. Part of the difficulty may be that the parasite seems to have an intracellular stage. Parasites are occasionally seen in phagocytic cells, called macrophages, which are part of the immune system and are supposed to destroy foreign materials by engulfing them. Cryptobia seems to be able to live within these cells rather than being destroyed by them. This can make it difficult to treat Cryptobia because most drugs are not able to penetrate the cell wall of a macrophage. Experiments run at the Tropical Aquaculture Laboratory suggest that these two treatment regimens may decrease the infection load: a) a bath treatment with dimetridazole (80 mg/L for 24 hrs, followed by a 80–100% water change, repeated daily for 3 days); or b) a bath treatment with 2-amino-5-nitrothiazol (10 mg/L for 24 hrs, followed by a 80-100% water change, repeated daily for 3 days)."

This lab is a leading fish lab here in the USA.

I honestly wish you the best of luck here. I wont try further to convince you that I feel your fish have more than stress going on.
Take care.

Al

[Bart_NL]

Well, maybe not convinced but you put enough doubt in my mind to make me order that microscope, thank you for that I'll be more careful...

[Bart_NL]

So today i had a first attempt to look closer at the white feces with a microscope, getting used to the scope I did not manage to make any pictures yet, but i did find something.

At a magniture of 100x - 400x I can clearly see some single-cell organism, lets assume it is a parasite moving back and forth as if it is moving something, the shape of it (mouse shape, one end more round that the other) does resemble what i have seen of cryptobia, zoomed in at i guess almost 400x i can see some of the internals (darker dot-like parts) of the thing, but there are no hair-like feature like seen in the pictures of croptobia i have seen.

The density is very low, i mean i found one that was moving around, what looked like a few dead ones, but i am still pretty clumsy moving around and focusing this cheap microscope and the sample is what i found when i got home from work, it may have been in the water for half a day.

I'll give it another go tomorrow, realizing this may also be a false alarm, i send the breeder a message suggesting i give them a second treatment of Manaus Octocil ?

Does anyone have an idea what it may have been that i saw at this magnification ?

[Bart_NL]

Ah, I got a reply from the breeder, i need to collect a sample of feces that is "fresh" and if possible has never touched the bottom, because that is where whatever life i saw probably came from.

Oh well, at least the life i found was sporadic, no worm fragments or other alarming discoveries, i'll try again tomorrow, keep a clean coral feeder at hand in case i see something dangling....

[Bart_NL]

A second sample she just dropped, I could find no signs of life in it, phew....

[brewmaster15]

Bart, Not finding anything in a fresh catch doesnt mean the fish are healthy...especially with Cryptobia. Parasites can invade tissues other than the gut lining and often do in cases when there is a chronic illness.

Shedding of the gut lining generally means there is something wrong with the fish.Healthy fish do not have white feces.

[Bart_NL]

I do understand not finding anything in the feces at this point is no guarantee there is nothing wrong, but it sure is a good sign, and she is still in quarantine at this point.

However, I read in many places stress is the most common cause of white feces, in combination with not eating we should worry about more than that, which i did, also i discovered she eats well if i give her mussels.

Now the breeder with his 20 years of experience is advising me to give her a break and put her back in the environment she grew up in, and I am going to take his advice, so far he has been like a friend to me so i'll take the risk.

In the community tank at this point there will only be 4 other discus as another pair is going to the breeding room, if i see any sign of problems there i will put the whole tank through a second Octocil treatment.

I take risks every day when I get in my car to go to work, no matter how well I take care of it there are no guarantees...

Thanks for you advice all the same, you got me to buy this microscope which is quite a valuable asset if you asked me !

[brewmaster15]

I do understand not finding anything in the feces at this point is no guarantee there is nothing wrong, but it sure is a good sign, and she is still in quarantine at this point.

However, I read in many places stress is the most common cause of white feces, in combination with not eating we should worry about more than that, which i did, also i discovered she eats well if i give her mussels.

Now the breeder with his 20 years of experience is advising me to give her a break and put her back in the environment she grew up in, and I am going to take his advice, so far he has been like a friend to me so i'll take the risk.

In the community tank at this point there will only be 4 other discus as another pair is going to the breeding room, if i see any sign of problems there i will put the whole tank through a second Octocil treatment.

I take risks every day when I get in my car to go to work, no matter how well I take care of it there are no guarantees...

Thanks for you advice all the same, you got me to buy this microscope which is quite a valuable asset if you asked me !

Can't argue with a breeder with 20 years experience...Good luck Bart, Hope it works out for you,


al

[Bart_NL]

Can't argue with a breeder with 20 years experience

I think you could, but I won't ;-)

I have been giving them a mix of mussels with artemia, mysis and some garlic powder and she has been eating miraculously well for the past few days, they will move to the community tank tomorrow i can't keep them up here forever....