Kordons AmQuel plus: Deadly!!

[discusdaves]

Words of wisdom from Alex:


Looking at web information it appears the main ingredient in regular non plus version of amquel is sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate (HOCH2SO3Na) and probably is the same in the plus version with sodium chloride as the added electrolytes . HOCH2SO3Na is consider a chelation agent and has very limited chemical interaction from what I can infer.

Sample chemical interactions from the web of (HOCH2SO3Na):

NH2Cl (Choloramine) + HOCH2SO3Na ↔ H2NCH2SO3Na + HOCl

HOCl (Hypochlorous acid- chlorine source) + HOCH2SO3Na ↔ H2NCH2SO4Na + HCl

NH3 (Ammonia) + HOCH2SO3Na ↔ H2NCH2SO3Na + H2O

Therefore the chemical inference of Amquel plus should dissipate as you stopped using it in your tanks since it and its byproducts should be removed with the water change I don't see why you would still see the problems you are having.

Other possible shot in the dark "theories" for your problems (remember I'm not expert) are a possible microbial contamination in either the amquel plus or your tap water or possibly from your discus source that population just built up to the right levels to attack your fish's health. Going from the theory of microbial contamination the aquel plus could have provided "food" for the offending microbe and inadvertently caused your problem. Also it may have been just simply contamination at the amquel manufacturing site if other are noticing similar problem with their batch of amquel plus.

Sorry that I can't help you further but changing your dechlorinator and lots of water changes should have solved the problem is if was just due to the chemicals within amquel plus. If it is due to a microbe contamination (Amquel or other) you could try an oxidizing agent such as PP on a few select fish and fish if it help with their condition.

Good Luck

Alex

[discusdaves]

My discus are looking better, I have been doing massive water exchanges every day and i have lost a ton of discus, and still have a few hanging by a thread, but for the most part things are looking up, i still haven’t heard from kordons, but I am still trying to be reasonable and give them a chance to contact me. I would like to call them and see what their excuse is for not contacting me though. Just thought I would update anyone who is still watching this thread, anyways thanks for the support.

[Discus master]

My discus are looking better, I have been doing massive water exchanges every day and i have lost a ton of discus, and still have a few hanging by a thread, but for the most part things are looking up, i still haven’t heard from kordons, but I am still trying to be reasonable and give them a chance to contact me. I would like to call them and see what their excuse is for not contacting me though. Just thought I would update anyone who is still watching this thread, anyways thanks for the support.

Well i am still watching this thread because both I truely feel awful for you picturing my self in your shoes I only have 6 discus and loosing any of them would be very up setting when I lost my first batch when I first started keeping discus I was so up set with my self and up set that I lost my fish and that Iw as not sucesful questioning everything I did and what i did wrong and what I should have done or done better and it was just so heart breaking not to mention the money well armed with new found knowledge and using a breeder instaed of an LFS for my source which I believe now was my mistake the fisrt ime around and not doing a proper qt I can seriously feel your pain to loose just one of my 6 would really and truely upset me I can't imagine suffering the lose you have had to endure so now I want answers for my self to keep tucked away so I can say remeber that guy on SD and what happen to his discus I never am using that product or whatevery have you and that and I want to track your progrs at least you did not loose them all. How many did you loose and how many do you have left what kind where they and what do you estimate your looses to be if you do not mind me asking or sharing that information????

[discusdaves]

well i thank you for your support, i would need to really spend some time typing out all of the losses, and it includes a ton of different strains, but i will be doing that here soon, just not tonight. I do have to gear it up, because Kordons is finally going to have a meeting as to this topic ( i am going to post copies of their emails soon)???? so im not sure what they are up to but...... i will fill you all in later. Tonights subject is to show all of you out there what type of company this is and an easily found contradiction that i just stubbled on:

CONTRAINDICATIONS
AmQuel should not be added to water containing active, therapeutic dosages of chemical dyes such as methylene blue, acriflavine, potassium permanganate or ...............


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMPATIBILITIES
Kordon Methylene Blue is compatible with NovAqua®, Acriflavine, Chelated Copper and PolyAqua®. Note: The presence of extensive amounts of Kordon's AmQuel® will reduce or eliminate the presence of Methylene Blue.


anyways......... i need to finish taking pictures of fish that died tonight and dispose of the bodies...........

[discusdaves]

CONTRAINDICATIONS
AmQuel should not be added to water containing active, therapeutic dosages of chemical dyes such as methylene blue, acriflavine, potassium permanganate or ...............


COMPATIBILITIES
Kordon Methylene Blue is compatible with NovAqua®, Acriflavine, Chelated Copper and PolyAqua®. Note: The presence of extensive amounts of Kordon's AmQuel® will reduce or eliminate the presence of Methylene Blue.


anyways......... i need to finish taking pictures of fish that died tonight and dispose of the bodies...........[/QUOTE]

I need to appologize for this comment, i am very tired, i have been working a ton at my day job and the hours are killing me when i have to spend every morning and night doing water exchanges, but i made this late night comment wich i just relized is not accurate, obviously i am a little more than unhappy with the company, because of their lack of contact and interest in my situation. I have used both nova auqua and amquel for so long i still say both names when referring to one product, thus my confusion. But after sleeping then reviewing the comment again, i relized that the labels clearly say not to mix methene blue and amquel, not nova aqua. SORRY!!

[Discus master]

CONTRAINDICATIONS
AmQuel should not be added to water containing active, therapeutic dosages of chemical dyes such as methylene blue, acriflavine, potassium permanganate or ...............


COMPATIBILITIES
Kordon Methylene Blue is compatible with NovAqua®, Acriflavine, Chelated Copper and PolyAqua®. Note: The presence of extensive amounts of Kordon's AmQuel® will reduce or eliminate the presence of Methylene Blue.


anyways......... i need to finish taking pictures of fish that died tonight and dispose of the bodies...........

I need to appologize for this comment, i am very tired, i have been working a ton at my day job and the hours are killing me when i have to spend every morning and night doing water exchanges, but i made this late night comment wich i just relized is not accurate, obviously i am a little more than unhappy with the company, because of their lack of contact and interest in my situation. I have used both nova auqua and amquel for so long i still say both names when referring to one product, thus my confusion. But after sleeping then reviewing the comment again, i relized that the labels clearly say not to mix methene blue and amquel, not nova aqua. SORRY!![/QUOTE]

Understandable with what you have been thru and are going thru, I will be happy for you when this thing finally comes to an end. keep us posted and get some rest

[Jennie]

I almost forgot to inform you, Kordon’s "know it all PhD in aquatic sciences" (he is a smug old man that thinks he knows it all and unfortunately he is the only person you will talk to if you have a problem) told me on Friday that they would have someone in their laboratories contact me on Friday, so now it has been 5 days without any type of help. I went ahead and sent emails to every company in the business of making dechlorinator last night and aside from wardley everyone sent me a tip via email. The one exception was Seachem the makers of prime, and not only did they email me a detailed email, but they asked me to call them at my convenience, and when I did they found the person that had emailed me and her name is Lindsey. She not only listened to me but she helped me walk through every possible solution for over an hour and a half!!!!!!!

I told you! LOL. THat same smug old man is an ***

[kaceyo]

I told you! LOL. THat same smug old man is an ***

When I talked with him a few years ago he told me that keeping discus at the temps we do (mid to lower 80's) was started by a mistake made by one of the first collectors who checked the temp in shallow standing water.
Discus should actually be kept at 74f to 76f just like any other tropical fish, he said.
When I tried to explain that even professional breeders kept discus in the 80f+ range he wouldn't here of it and got upset. Oh Well.

[Jennie]

When I talked with him a few years ago he told me that keeping discus at the temps we do (mid to lower 80's) was started by a mistake made by one of the first collectors who checked the temp in shallow standing water.
Discus should actually be kept at 74f to 76f just like any other tropical fish, he said.
When I tried to explain that even professional breeders kept discus in the 80f+ range he wouldn't here of it and got upset. Oh Well.

LOL, I'm positive the lab/scientest operate out of his garage!

[discusdaves]

When I talked with him a few years ago he told me that keeping discus at the temps we do (mid to lower 80's) was started by a mistake made by one of the first collectors who checked the temp in shallow standing water.
Discus should actually be kept at 74f to 76f just like any other tropical fish, he said.
When I tried to explain that even professional breeders kept discus in the 80f+ range he wouldn't here of it and got upset. Oh Well.

That does not surprise me!!!! The guy thinks he knows it all!!!! But anyways they finally came to pick up a sample to test yesterday. After 2 weeks!!!
will keep yall informed as to the answer.

[Keith Perkins]

I'm continue to follow the thread and I should be sending out links to the folks I PM with, just in case any of them haven't seen it. This is certainly a thread worth watching.

[discusdaves]

I'm continue to follow the thread and I should be sending out links to the folks I PM with, just in case any of them haven't seen it. This is certainly a thread worth watching.

i do really apriciate it. i have most of my fish stable now, havent had a loss in a few days, but i do still have an xl blue cobalt, a xl melon, a 3in. super flamingo, and a xl leaopord that are fighting to stay alive rite now. But at least they are alive. but i have lost:
8 fry
1 adult 5in. melon
1 adult 5.5in red cover throwback
2 4in. tiger carnation turqs
2 3in. snow whites
4 3in. virgin reds
3 4in. altum floras
1 xl breading pair of super erution leopords
4 3.5in. golden diamonds
4 3.5in. white butterfly white scorpions
1 xl(7in. plus) blue cobalt
2 3in. super checkerboard pigeons
1 xl male super eruption leopord (was a breeding pair)
2 4.5in altum floras
2 4in. carnation ss pigeons
1 5.5in. super eruption leopord with ring genes
and there are about 10-20 more that i dont have on this list, but i have lost a ton of beautiful fish.

still waiting for kordons to contact me.

[discusdaves]

Well i am still watching this thread because both I truely feel awful for you pic..........................................progr s at least you did not loose them all. How many did you loose and how many do you have left what kind where they and what do you estimate your looses to be if you do not mind me asking or sharing that information????

i wa answering this question.

[Jennie]

Who is they, dave? Kordon picked up sample or are you independently getting it tested? I wonder if your local water company can test it?

That does not surprise me!!!! The guy thinks he knows it all!!!! But anyways they finally came to pick up a sample to test yesterday. After 2 weeks!!!
will keep yall informed as to the answer.

[vince512]

Again thank you all for your help and support through this, only you can understand my grief, everyone else thinks they are just fish!!!!!

To me my fish are my pets, to others here their livelihood. People who do not own fish will never realize it until they have fish to take care of themselves.

As for Kordon and Amquel, I have been using it in my community tank (hoping to have a Discus tank in the near future) until I read this forum. My decision to stop using their product is not so much for the tragic loss that you have deifinitely been through but for the way they have responded to your loss so far and their absense in standing behind their product or better yet a competent technical staff to help you when a crisis arises from their product. How can someone continue to put their pets or even their assets (business owners) in their product if the actual company itself does not stand behind their product or trained staff to assist (not including their "retired" scientist).

I will be watching this thread closely as well, hopefully that when you or their tests show that if it was their product at fault they make good on their end...