After the PP fluke treatment

[kaceyo]

In a 75 gallons tank....using 1/8 teaspoon of PP.....when water turns brown add H2O2....water clears up add 1/8 teaspoon of PP again.....same procedure for 4 hours......after treament 80% water change....only do two whole treaments in a week.

Cheers
Francis

Hi Francis,
I think Graham is right about the H2O2 working against you. Try doing a large wc to remove the brown water instead of using HP. If the water turns brown before the 4hrs is up, wipe the tank walls down, clean filters and anything in the tank, do a large wc and then add more PP, but I'd wait till the next day to add more.

Kacey

[kaceyo]

Ok I see what you mean....it would concentrate is oxidization power in a shorter time frame.

Exactly.

[Daniella]

wow, 1/4 teaspoon? You guys are using dosage that are way way higher than the recommanded 2ppm. Your dosage is around 7ppm.

I guess PP is not that dangerous after all if it does not burn the fish at such high concentration for so long.

My fish are improving after each treatment. My fish never look stressed wether the water turn brown after half hour and I need to redose, or not. I have never seen them gasp for air either way but I use a good large airstone in my 20 gallon treatment tank.

As for the precipitate that can form on to gills, it does not look like a myth to me, far from a myth, here are some reference, even a book reference.:

BTW, this could very well explain why some people are seing breathing problem when PP precipitate. Maybe their PH is a bit higher and the PP form some precipitate on to the gills? This is not surprising as many many drugs are influenced by the alkalinity and the PH of the water and many become toxic if the water is too soft, too alkaline or if the PH is a certain way. Even the temperature has an important role in toxicity or many substances.

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/...rmanganate.htm

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It is is more toxic at higher pH. In alkaline conditions a solid precipitate of manganese dioxide (MnO2) can form on gills. This can cause respiratory problems by blocking the gills. Additionally, MnO2 is a strong oxidising agent and presumably in such a situation could cause other gill-tissue damage.
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And here is an exert from a book by:

The veterinary formulary By Yolande M. Bishop, British Veterinary Association.


http://books.google.ca/books?id=WITa...esult&resnum=1

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Permanganate potassium is toxic in water of high PH because maganese dioxide may precipitate on to the gills.
-----------------


It seems that it is at higher PH that this can happen. Not sure what is considered a higher PH though. A myth?? yeah right

I don't think it's a problem much but something to be awared of in case your PH is very high. I guess with discus most of us have lower PH. Mine is 7.4 to 7.6 so I am a little worried when I see PP turning brown. As long as it is pink, I am not worried.

Normally if the water is darker it means that there is still a high level of PP and may also have a higher level of magnesum at the same time. If you leave the PP in you will see over time that it turns a light brown provided you didnt start out with too much PP to start with. MDS, I use half dosage to start with and add as I go. 1/8 tsp to start with on a 29 gal and 1/4 tsp for a 40 long. I normally add more PP after 30 mins. I do agree with Graham in that you dont add the hydrogen peroxide in until the end of the potassium permagenate treatment. I try to wait 2 days between treatments so that it kills rehatched gill flukes. If you give your system a good scrubbing ie bactieral/protein buildup on the tank sides then you will have crystal clear water after your first treatment.

[Daniella]

What is your PH? I am wondering if your PH is not a tad high so the maganese dioxide precipitate on to the gills of your fish and that is why you see them gasp for air when the PP turn brown?

Since I have never seen my fish do it, I am wondering about that.

If the PP stay purple it means that it did not precipitate yet and that would explain why your fish are not bothered then.

that is one possible explanation. Might be worth a thought.

Graham,
I'll take your word for it that the brown color is manganese. But experience tells me that when there are alot of organics in the water, enough to cause the water to go brown fairly quickly, that the fish get much more stressed than when the water is clean enough stay pink the whole 4hr treatment. I believe that the oxygen is being used up much faster when the organic load is high and this effects the fish.
You are right. The PP only has so much reducing ability, and the fish are more than able to handle that in a clean system. But when that "ability" is used up quickly on organics, the O2 is also used up more quickly.
I've seen fish end up gasping for air and starting to lay down in the tank under those circumstances, which they never do in a clean tank that stays pink.

Kacey

[kaceyo]

The pH is around 7.2 right now. Does the water turn brown quickly when you use PP? I don't have that problem anymore since it only took a few times to realize that I needed to do better cleanup of filters etc and do a large wc before treating with PP.
Knowing that O2 is being used up quickly with high loads of organics to work on is what led me to believe it was O2 depletion I was seeing. The manganese may contribute to the problem, I'm not sure on that one.

Kacey

What is your PH? I am wondering if your PH is not a tad high so the maganese dioxide precipitate on to the gills of your fish and that is why you see them gasp for air when the PP turn brown?

Since I have never seen my fish do it, I am wondering about that.

If the PP stay purple it means that it did not precipitate yet and that would explain why your fish are not bothered then.

that is one possible explanation. Might be worth a thought.

[Daniella]

I use RO / aged tap for my treatment, but having a bio load of 10 fish (4 adults) in a 20 gallon does make it last less. After 4 hours it is generaly exhausted, sometime after 2 hours I need to redose.

my ph is 7.4 and I never seen gasping. I use an air stone though.

I treated my main tank with 10 ppm and left the tetra in there because I could not catch them. After 10 to 15 minutes they were starting to gasp, so I terminated the treatment. Water was purple, not brown. they are doing great now.

I guess this is why it is important to be there and watch over in case treatmetn need to be ended. Good thing that we do have many ways to neutralize it so that make it quite safe if we watch.

The pH is around 7.2 right now. Does the water turn brown quickly when you use PP? I don't have that problem anymore since it only took a few times to realize that I needed to do better cleanup of filters etc and do a large wc before treating with PP.
Knowing that O2 is being used up quickly with high loads of organics to work on is what led me to believe it was O2 depletion I was seeing. The manganese may contribute to the problem, I'm not sure on that one.

Kacey

[MostlyDiscus]

NC

[kaceyo]

So what's you're point Graham? If you haven't read about something it doesn't exist? I'm going by experience with my discus, not koi or something I read about.
I never mentioned high pH as being part of the problem, I only answered the question asked about what my pH was. I also said I don't know if manganese had anything to do with it or not. Period.
Many of us have used PP many times at high and low doses as you have, but I doubt if any of us has experienced all the problems that can come up. So it's not strange or unbelievable that I might have had a different experience than you have. Considering how variable tank and water conditions can be it would be unbelievable if we all had the same experiences.
I'm not one of the folks here that thinks all you say is gospel, but I think you may be starting to believe it ,lol!

This is getting funny...1st off PP isn't manganese dioxide and it doesn't stick to gill lammallae. Then the higher pH that both mention would have to be something above at least 9.0 from anything that I've ever seen. ............. 4ppm doses are regularly used in the koi hobby on a daily basis and most ponders maintain thier pH at 8.4 with the use of baking soda. Even Dr Roddy Conrad pHD chemistry never mentions this possible problem and he's the expert on PP.

Read this as she is one of the top Aquaculture Vet in NA...funny she doesn't mention this great problem with MnO2.... since it isn't one

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/...pp_usage.shtml

Personally I've used PP at 4ppm levels for up to 5 days in a row, with the water ending up chocolate brown with lots of foam and have never experienced this problem...


Daniella as long at the PP is pink to purple it is working...when it gone brown it's not

[Daniella]

so one site not refering to it is enough to discredit plenty of other veterinarian sources referencing it? interesting logic.

I saw it in written books, veterinarian litterature etc.. they are all liars?

Do a search in google for permanganate potassium precipitate on gills and you will find plenty more reference to it.

here is another one:

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/gill%20disease.htm

The draw back is that it will push the really sick fish over the top - mainly I suspect because the permanganate forms a temporary precipitate of manganese dioxide in the gills, affecting fish with severe respiratory problems.

if you do a little search you will find many references to it, even in written books like this one: I guess at 145$ it's not a crapbook

http://www.amazon.ca/Fish-Disease-Di...264849&sr=11-1

http://books.google.ca/books?id=SAdD...esult&resnum=3

I quote the book:

"Potassium permanganate is toxic in water with high pH, since manganese dioxide may precipitate onto the gills.'

Honestly, a 145$ book written by a specialist can't be that wrong.

Oh and as opposite to the site you refered too, they do mention formaline:

"Potassium permanganate should not be mixed with formalin".

This is getting funny...1st off PP isn't manganese dioxide and it doesn't stick to gill lammallae. Then the higher pH that both mention would have to be something above at least 9.0 from anything that I've ever seen. ............. 4ppm doses are regularly used in the koi hobby on a daily basis and most ponders maintain thier pH at 8.4 with the use of baking soda. Even Dr Roddy Conrad pHD chemistry never mentions this possible problem and he's the expert on PP.

Read this as she is one of the top Aquaculture Vet in NA...funny she doesn't mention this great problem with MnO2.... since it isn't one

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/...pp_usage.shtml

Personally I've used PP at 4ppm levels for up to 5 days in a row, with the water ending up chocolate brown with lots of foam and have never experienced this problem...


Daniella as long at the PP is pink to purple it is working...when it gone brown it's not

[seanyuki]

PP and formalin combine together is fatal.

Cheers
Francis

[Daniella]

I am not sure what you mean by I don,t read enough because I have been spending my last 3 weeks doing just that and studying every possible sources on the net that I could find on every possible illness and treatments.

I have read exert from veterinarian reports and books, all I could find.

I know that PP and formaline is not a problem as long as you don't mix them. My reference to it was to point out that the site you refered too did not mention it and it is something important that was missed right there, so if she does not mention PP precipitate it could be as well an ommission from her part, does not mean it does not exist.

I think that in soft water and with normal pH, most of us won't have problem with precipitate but I am still worry since I don't know exactly what pH can cause this and if a lower pH can cause it to a lesser degree.

So far with my pH of 7.4 it did not happen as far as I know.

I also know it is a no go with salt water because the pH is higher but there might be something else here involved. I think even the specialists are not sure about it.

In any case, I love PP as this is what saved my fish. It's a very precious tool if used properly. I just want to make sure I know everything there is to know about it, and I do mean everything. So I read and read and study everywhere they mention it, all studies that were done with it and the results they got from using it.

Those references are as reliable as a professional reference can be.

1st off Kacey my post wasn't directed at you but Daniella and 2nd, nothing I say is gospel and everyone including you and especially Daniella needs to study the meds that they are using and make thier own decisions from there.

Unfortunately daniella doesn't read enough to find out that maybe the preceived problems with QC and PP aren't really problems at all, in practise.

[Daniella]

thanks, I had already read that article in that link and a whole lot more on PP.

I think I read everything that exist on the web about PP.

Daniella when the water goes tea colour to brown that is MnO2, it's always there when PP becomes spent...it's not organics. The Vet in my reference is one of the top people in the field of aquaculture, she doesn't omit stuff if it has the potential to wipe out a million dollar fish farm. As a general rule coating gills is not an issue...a very sick fish with compromised gills may be pushed over the edge.

Also there is no problem using salt and PP together. PP gets used in marine set ups...Formalin and salt has the potential to be a problem

Some light reading

http://www.mcnearyspondsandaquaticpl...anganate_.html