How do you dose Potassium Permanganate (PP)?

[Graham]

Just another word of caution about using PP. While it's great at clearing up parasite and some other medical problems, it can and will burn and kill fish. It's an oxidizer and it doesn't really care what it oxidizes.

Any dose level, like 0.5>0.1ppm, that's capable of affecting nitrifiers/bacteria, and water quality is also affecting the fish. Continual use of low levels for water quality will be seen as hyperplasia in the gills cells. Ocassional use up in the 3.0 > 4.0ppm range for parasite is fine also but not a regular bases............

Anything above that is a very short term dip and fin edges and gills maybe brunt.

Anytime that PP used, O2 levels should be increased to the max. and hydrogen peroxide or sodium thiosulfate should be on hand should the fish experience any stress from it.

This stuff should be only used in known volumes of water and then weighed out using a gram scale.

[Elcid]

Sandeep,
I did a search for gram scales and up came a zillion places that sell them. compair a few prices and designs to see what looks good. Mostly you want one that is accurate to at least 0.1 grams or 0.01g for scales that weigh to 100ths of a gram. Some will measure in many dif units like mg, ounces, grams, carats etc etc.
My scale is a Jennings but there are alot of good names out there.

Kacey

Hi Kacey:

Thanks will do! I always thought a decent gram scale would be $70-100, so $15 was really an eye opener! I'll do a search and get one! , If only to measure the weight gain of my babies over time! thanks!

take care,
Sandeep

[Elcid]

Just another word of caution about using PP. While it's great at clearing up parasite and some other medical problems, it can and will burn and kill fish. It's an oxidizer and it doesn't really care what it oxidizes.

Any dose level, like 0.5>0.1ppm, that's capable of affecting nitrifiers/bacteria, and water quality is also affecting the fish. Continual use of low levels for water quality will be seen as hyperplasia in the gills cells. Ocassional use up in the 3.0 > 4.0ppm range for parasite is fine also but not a regular bases............

Anything above that is a very short term dip and fin edges and gills maybe brunt.

Anytime that PP used, O2 levels should be increased to the max. and hydrogen peroxide or sodium thiosulfate should be on hand should the fish experience any stress from it.

This stuff should be only used in known volumes of water and then weighed out using a gram scale.

Hey Graham:

Very good points, can you give more details?

thanks,
Sandeep

[Graham]

Sandeep I'm not sure which ''more details'' that you want. The PP debate has raged for years in the koi end of things, both as a preventative for parasites and as a water quality fix. In most cases its a band-aid>

There have been some microscopic studies done that show continual use, even in very low doses over a period of time affect the gill lamellae, with thickening and layering of the cells. Think of it, kind of like calluses forming on your hands. This interferes with osmoregulation.

A lot of ponders use it instead of doing water changes....if you have to change 2000 gallons per week and you're paying for your water then there may be some justication for it, but in the aquarium end of things, just do water changes.

[Elcid]

Hi Graham:

Thanks for the further clarification. It's good I started this thread and that you have posted! ....

I'm trying to get all my thoughts down as well as thoughts from others so that people are not so scared about PP and use it effectively. If ppl understand the issues then maybe they can use it correctly and without fear!

The details I wanted was about your statement "Continual use of low levels for water quality will be seen as hyperplasia in the gills cells." Okay let's say we use this 2ppm level that Kacey advocates as the safe level for discus, how many hours at this concentration will I see hyperplasia in the gill cells? Does it have to be continual exposure or periodic exposure say 2 hrs/month will cause it? and in how many months? If you have any reference to this study and especially if it's available in the internet can you please post the link?

Like any chemical or med PP isn't without it's drawbacks but I don't think that means that we should be so fearful of it that we don't use it at all.

take care,
Sandeep

[Graham]

Sandeep I hope everyone is scared to death of PP...the second they are not and get careless, they'll have dead or hurt fish. I've seen it happen too many times...me included. I killed about $4k worth of koi because I wasn't paying attention to the dose/water volume.

2ppm is a very safe dose for any fish and the fish can stay in it till it exhusts itself, when there is a need to use it. If you were to use this dose every few days/weekly the a clip/scope of gills cells would show hyperplasia after a few weeks. A dose of 0.5ppm may show some very minor damage to gill tissue, but this woudl repair itself after a day or so...but why do something that affects the fish, even a little bit.

Using PP for water quality issues is poor husbandry IMO...change the water.

Here's a thread from the NI koi board

some good reading

http://members4.boardhost.com/koimag...181003644.html

G

[Elite Aquaria]

2ppm is a very safe dose for any fish and the fish can stay in it till it exhusts itself, when there is a need to use it.

G

Graham,

When is there a need to use PP in your opinion?

Dan

[Blackwater Aquaria]

Hi Mike fromBlackwater Aquaria: I think you got all the pros and cons about KMNO4. Some positive some not. I can only say why use it when you have so many other products that are safer and most are designed for certian problems, keep it simple what complicates the hobby is us! Good luck Mike

[Graham]

Graham,

When is there a need to use PP in your opinion?

Dan

While I mostly help hobbyists with ponds and koi, I find that PP is a good general shot gun med that's cheap to use, can be bought in large quanitites and can be used at any temp, where as F&MG can't be. It doesn't do much to flukes but will kill most other parasites.

For Aquariums F&MG is a much better shotgun med

[Kindredspirit]

Sandeep I hope everyone is scared to death of PP...the second they are not and get careless,

Very true statement here, guys ~ so listen well Never administer without someone that knows what they are doing 100%, and is guiding you on the spot ~

[Elcid]

Hi Graham:

Thanks for the link! Some very interesting reading! I agree with you 100% about not being careless with PP, but "scared to death" why not get an aquarium screen saver , heck you don't even have to change the water!

Your post reminds me of some pics I saw in Tony Tan's website. The tanks all had toilet bowl flushes on them! Our tanks are like toilet bowls, we need to flush them often and disinfect them once in a while! You can change the water all you want but the bad actors are "not just in the water"

take care,
Sandeep

Sandeep I hope everyone is scared to death of PP...the second they are not and get careless, they'll have dead or hurt fish. I've seen it happen too many times...me included. I killed about $4k worth of koi because I wasn't paying attention to the dose/water volume.

2ppm is a very safe dose for any fish and the fish can stay in it till it exhusts itself, when there is a need to use it. If you were to use this dose every few days/weekly the a clip/scope of gills cells would show hyperplasia after a few weeks. A dose of 0.5ppm may show some very minor damage to gill tissue, but this woudl repair itself after a day or so...but why do something that affects the fish, even a little bit.

Using PP for water quality issues is poor husbandry IMO...change the water.

Here's a thread from the NI koi board

some good reading

http://members4.boardhost.com/koimag...181003644.html

G

[Elcid]

Hi Guyz:

I'm pretty much finished editing my original post and sharing everything I know about PP.....Hope ppl will continue to post their experiences with PP in this thread so that "fear" can be conquered!

take care,
Sandeep

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

I used to us PP several years ago. I used it on my pairs, fry, new imports...all my fish. They did great with it. But since then, I have switched to using 35% hydrogen peroxide. IMO, it works better and is easier to work with. It can affect your pH a bit (up swing) if you're not careful, but overall it works very well. Only down side is that it can be hard to find locally, and if you cant find it locally you will pay a lot for shipping since it has to ship hazmat.

-Ryan

[Graham]

3) I dosed PP when my fish had cuts and leisions (bad move)

This has been a good thread and hopefully everyone knows a little more about the purple crystal.

The ones statement that you made in your 1st post which isn't accurate is # 3. PP is used regularly as a wet paste on a Q-Tip to clean/cauterize, remove necrotic tissue on open sores and wounds. It may leave a scar but it will clean up an ulcer very well. It should have no ill affect on the fish

Other than that, all good info.

[kaceyo]

Hey Ryan,
I have found the opposite to be true, for me anyways. I have 35% HP tho I haven't used it in a long time. When I did, I used it at 2 drops/gal, tho I have no idea how that compares to a 2ppm PP treatment for oxidation. Maybe I'm not using enough, but I'm reluctant to use more since there is very little info available on using it in aquaria. The problems I've had with HP are that it is much harder on the filter bacteria, you can't deactivate it and it lasts much longer in the water afterwards than I thought at first. Mostly tho, my fish don't come out of an HP treatment with the obvious improvement in behavior and reduction of symptoms.

Kacey