Anyone know what's causing this?

[KJoFan]

Sorry to post with yet another problem. But I just wondered if anyone might have an idea what is causing this red/purple discoloration of the nose/mouth area in a couple of my discus? Seems like the ones that have or develop it end up dying. If there's something I can be doing to clear this up I'd sure like to know. Tank readings as of a few minutes ago:

75g tank:
Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 10
pH - 8.0
Temp - 87 (i turned the heater down a little, I'm aiming for 84-85)
WC - 60% daily

[Graham]

That's a bacterial infection...I think I would attack this in two ways...one assume that there's a parasite and it's breaking through the mucus layer. So I would shotgun the tank with something like Quick Cure. A scope would be nice as a quich scrape would ID any possible bug

The I would assume that the bacterial infection is a secondary invader...once the parasite is gone, the bacteria should be east to clear up with Furan or something like it.

G

[KJoFan]

Hi Graham,

I'm going to have to look into a scope yet at this rate eh?

This tank has gone through a round (3 days) of Quick Cure....I think the last day of that was about 3 days ago. I see occasional scratching but nothing that would alarm me that there's a big parasite problem at this point.

So I guess I should move on to trying to target the bacterial infection right? I don't think I have anything that is or has Furan. All I probably have to treat bacterial infections right now is TC and metro. My other problem ran me out of Maracyn 2 right now and I don't have enough Maracyn to treat this tank tonight. I could pick either one up tomorrow evening though. So as of right now my choices are TC and metro.

[Graham]

TC

[KJoFan]

treatment started.

[Graham]

Karen ...Karl looked at the thread...here's his current email addy...he thinks that the other fish could have been injected...I agree...get in touch with him

krs55124@frontiernet.net



G

[Kindredspirit]

Injected, Graham? Why? With What? You can not just leave it at that....

[Graham]

If you get a bacterial infection, the doctor will give you some antibiotics. You'll either have some pills to take or he'll give you an injection. Either way those antibiotics end up in our blood system where they can do the most good.

When our fish get sick with a bacterial infection we generally dump X amount of antibiotic into the water column, hoping for the best. Some of these drugs are fairly well absorbed by the fish via the gills....most are poorly absorbed and expend their ''abilities'' on the bacteria in the system and not on the fish. Medicated food is good stuff if the fish is still eating but in most cases they are not.

So what's the next step in getting those drugs into the fish.... If the fish is large enough then giving them an injection of antibiotics is the ideal way, based loosely on weight, we can inject X amount of drug directly into the fish via syringe.

I saw this done 25 years ago on marines but never had the training to do it. When I started keeping koi and started attending wet labs, we were shown how etc.

We use Human grade or Vet grade antibiotics such as Baytril, Chloramphenicol, Azactam, Amikacin (my Fav), Florfenicol and others. Curing a sore like Karen's fish had isn't all that difficult when the drugs are in the fish and not in the water.

Needless to say the larger the fish the easier it is to do, but I've injected 3'' koi and GF, along with a few of my Africans.

[Kindredspirit]

I understand....but you are being evasive... You think that Karen's fish have or were injected and this infection is the end result?


or ~

Am I missing it entirely?

[Graham]

Ya missed it... If I had a fish here with that kind of a sore, it would have been cleaned up using either a iodione or PP swab. The fish would have then been given an injection of Baytril or Amikacin, IM/ inter muscular, in the dorsal region.

G

[Kindredspirit]

Ya missed it...
G

I thought so.... I know you would have injected them and I remember thinking I want you to live closer to me too!

However....In my defense

Karen ...Karl looked at the thread... he thinks that the other fish could have been injected...I agree...get in touch with him

krs55124@frontiernet.net



G

I asked what I did because of this statement...apparently you both thought they "could have been injected"..........

With that statement, Hell I wanted to know what was going thru that great mind of yours!



Thanks, Graham!

[mmorris]

This isn't making sense to me. Are you suggesting, Graham, that the fish had this issue before Karen bought them, they were treated with an injection and then they were sold, still ill? You think `the other fish could have been injected.' Are the `other fish' the ones that died or the ones that don't show symptoms? Where is the evidence that they were injected? Martha

[KJoFan]

I think what Graham is saying is that my fish with the ulcer could have been injected with an antibiotic to help clear up the infection and save it from death. We're using "could have been" because the fish has since died. By using "the other fish" he was referring to that one with the ulcer, as it was in a separate thread from this one. If that makes sense. I think you guys are tending to think hormone injected or something right? But as far as I know we're just talking about antibiotic injections. But...I could be way off and we're talking about my fish!

[mmorris]

But what rationale is there for thinking that they could have been injected? I don't think injections are commonly done when shipping fish. Graham, you seem to think that the ulcer on the other thread was related to shipping. What justification, then, is there for an injection prior to shipping? I'm asking because I am curious and I would like to learn about this. Martha

[Graham]

OK everyone is missing what I was saying,,,Karen got it though. The sores and the sick/dead fish that Karen is experiencing are from shipping stress. The problems developed in the shipping process, not before they left.....that's an assumption

From what I can gather from Karen's posts, in this thread and the other one these fish were transshipped. They landed in LA, the boxes opened, the fish ''cleaned up''... what ever that entailed and re-oxygenated and shipped off again.

All this is extremely stressful and physical damage can occur to the fish. In this case the fish developed an ulcer, a bacterial infection, in a large area and had no immune system to fight it off. If Karen had, had antibiotics, around and was shown/knew how to give an injection, the odds are pretty good that fish would still be alive. The infection was very minor to start with. I've seen fish with ulcer 10 times that bad be cleaned up.

I hope this clears up the confusion. I'd suggest that any one into keeping expensive fish and especially larger ones to check out the AKCA web site and find out where koi shows are being help and see if a wet lab is being given...It's not hard to learn how to diagnose, do a scrape and scope, and given an injection...


It's a nice day here, so off to my friend's yacht for the day