Potassium Permanganate

[Graham]

I've used PP on Africans and my Koi many times and none of them ever sits, leans or rolls.........Years ago I also used it in the stores and didn't see any sitting...you've got wimpy fish

When a fish lays over or rolls that's a sign of stress and whatever is causing that stress should be corrected. If they are just hovering then I wouldn't worry too much about.

Most fish will pipe in a low O2 situation but not always........using PP or Formalin O2 levels need to be maintained as high as possible. Surface agitation from power heads or spray bars works better than even airstones.


Edit.............Larry the 100% water change probably brings the O2 levels back to max 8 or 9 mg/l

[kaceyo]

Larry,
Mine do too, which is why I thought it worth asking where the cutoff point is for others. So far, if all they do is go dark and clamp up a bit, I keep the treatment going. Mostly because I've never had fish go a full 4hrs at 2ppm with no signs of stress. It would be interesting to hear others experiences with this as it's left very vague in any instructions I've read. I can't believe most other peoples fish sail thru the 4hrs at 2ppm or even higher (I'm thinking of trying today at 3ppm) like nothings going on. I have had fish go quite awhile and even search for food a good portain of the time, but not usually.
Graham,
It's possible the 02 level dropped too low and caused the rolling. At that time I wasn't weighing doses, but did have an AC 500 w/out media running into the tank with the water lowered. But I have felt I needed to stop a treatment well before the 4hr mark even with purple water well airated and
and a weighed dose. Maybe the fish weak from illness or something else. But I'd still like to know where others cut things off.
Kacey

[kaceyo]

Nobody wants to get into this aspect of PP treatments? I'd think it would be one of the most important issues. I'm doing a 3ppm treatment right now and 1hr into the treatment all the fish are at the bottom along the back trying to get underneath the heater and water pump (this is my first at 3ppm). Definitly signs of some stress. There are two airstones with high volumes of air, one at each end of the tank. A ViaAqua 360gph pump close to the bottom with a hose outlet 2" above the waterline splashing into the tank. It's a 55gal acrylic tank with six 4.5" fish. pH was 7.0 and TDS at 140ppm. Temp is 86F. Light is off.

Kacey

After posting above, I noticed the hose from the pump had dropped down near the surface and wasn't splashing like it had been. Within 15 minutes of returning it to it's original hight ,the fish started coming out and moving around more, no longer trying to hide. They are still dark and have clamped fins tho. Watching them closely.

[Graham]

kacey Keep in mind that witha temp at 86* the DO is probably down in the low 7's to start with...then the PP is taking much lower than that...a spray bar will work even better than fluming the water.

Discus are wimps but as long as the fish are not stressing out too much allow the treatment to go as long as possible...the longer the greater the bug kill factor

Keep us posted

G

[pcsb23]

Sorry Kacey, been busy this weekend, actually I am interested in this. Grahams observations are intersting, but he hjad not performed a PP treatment on discus (yet). Koi for sure are kept at noticably lower temps than discus are. As I have had little interest in Africans I cannot comment but again believ trhey are in the upper 70's very low 80's. Fwiw I always do PP treatments at 82f as anything that can deplete O2 needs to be mitigated by any means possible, no matter how small a contribution it may make.

One point woth making is that the discus physiology is built to deal with water of incredibly low mineral content, and acidic ph. Africans, koi and many otyer tropicals come from water much higher in mineral content and in most cases of alkaline nature. This may be a contibuting factor to the reaction seen in discus.

I have always seen some signs of distress in my discus, usually they sulk. They sort of mooch about unhappy. Nowadays I don't "blow" doses so I don't kill any I am not a fan of adding more PP if the colour changes, seems like you end up adding loads more to overcome the colour and before you know it you are at the 8 to 10+ ppm bracket. My routine is simple, wipe the tank etc down, big w/c dose at 2ppm for 4 hours, neutralise with H2O2 followed by a big w/c (ok so some woyuld say don't neutralise but...)

I have been reading recently about using just H2O2 to replace PP, very interesting option...the fish will not be short of O2 using this!

[Graham]

Sorry Paul looks like we're posting at the same time...............Can't wait to get a few discus in here and test out the PP factor on them............I have used it over the years on other low pH fish mind you, with out a problem

[pcsb23]

Sorry Paul looks like we're posting at the same time...............Can't wait to get a few discus in here and test out the PP factor on them............I have used it over the years on other low pH fish mind you, with out a problem

Graham I cannot wait for you to be hooked properly I gues the point I was making was more related to water temp than ph. As you pointed out O2 depletes quickly at higher temps, and chemical reactions occur faster at higher temps (thus depleting the O2 faster).

[Graham]

Oh it's coming...as soon as the liner problems in the koihouse are resolved then I'll look at replacing the 60 and setting up a 90

[kaceyo]

Hi guys,
I had considered the species Graham had experience with and could easily see them showing much less stress during a PP treatment. Both because of lower temps and, in the case of ponds, larger surface areas. Not to mention they are both, especially africans, active swimmers.
After readjusting the hose splash after the first post, the discus became much more active, but still dark and clamped. They stayed pretty active for the next 2hrs so I thought I had the O2 covered. Then, in the space of 10 mins, they went from active to sitting on the bottom, literally laying over each other like a row of fallen dominoes. That was 2hrs 50min into treatment. Which is curious as I think the reaction to the hose splash adjustment shows much of it is 02 related as you both suggested.
I have another smaller tank (29gal) going through the same treatment from the same stock solution but with only two airstones, and they are still doing fine. There are two 5+" fish in it and all params are the same.
Gotta go as the water change on the dominoes is climbing and I want to see how they're doing.

Kacey

[Graham]

Good stuff Kacey....Too bad you don't have an O2 meter or an ORP meter...keep us posted

[kaceyo]

The fish in the 55 gal took about half an hour to recover after the 2hr & 50min treatment while the two in the 29gal went the full 4hrs without problems. I think the 29 had less water agitation too, with only the two airstones, but they still handled it better. I agree Graham, it would have been very interesting to be able to monitor the O2 in particuler throughout the process. The water stayed a strong purple in both tanks till the end so the mv's should have been high. I still wonder what caused the fish to go from active one minute to leaning over on the bottom the next.
All the more reason to make sure a very close eye is kept on things no matter how well the treatment is going, and to have a good idea of what to look for in deciding when to cut the treatment short.

Kacey

[obsessed]

ok, i'll bite.
i am sure not a pro but i am not nevrvous anymore about PP treatments. I can't find how i used to do this and sometimes kill fish.... ( i bet i was using 4ppm in the past)

but this is what i do now.

My water is 90 -120 microSiemens out of the tap. currently pH 8.0, so I add a little HCl and age overnight to pH between 6 and 7.
temps vary tank to tank, 82 - 86F. Barebottom. Sponge filters
The day BEFORE i do a PP, I vaccuum, scrub the tank and continue vaccuum for a 50% or more water change so i have pretty clean water and tank the next day.
the next day i do a quick vaccuum. Remove sponge to a bucket with aeration, and put a vigorous airstone in the tank (29 gal)
As i stated before i have a 5000ppm stock solution and i use 1.5 ml per US gallon. I tend to add the dose in small increments because sometimes the fish swim into the PP before it has spread out in the tank. Once i think the PP has equilibrated in the tank I take a sample in a clear glass (i think a white cup might work too). after 15 minutes or so i take another and compare them . Hopefully there is not much change, if there is i think i have too much dechlor and it is neutralizing the PP.
(hmmm, then i either just can it, or i add more PP and just watch the fish pretty closely. usually i add more PP in small increments, but i imagine that i am really not doing anything beneficial, so i just do a water change after an hour or so.)

If all is going as planned, my fish do like others it sounds like. go to the back, huddle together sometimes, list to the side a little. Other times, they act as if nothing is different. When they turn dark, start breathing heavy, or all have their fins clamped before 4 hours is up i start changing water. If one lies completely flat i add dechlor to neutralize the PP. (i don't remember if the fish uprighted immmediately after that or not. it was a few years ago)
I have to admit, i do add PP as time goes on as I see it changing color in my monitoring with the glasses. during the 4 hour treatment i once again wipe down the tank. splash water up in the rim, on the cover etc.
When i have had enough i do a 100% water change. Then I slowly much as cup of salt to the tank (29gal), but usually not that much, only 2 TBLS/ 10 gallon.
I might do this 3 times over a week. then start lowering the salt conc with water changes.
All i can think of at the moment.

Paul

[dizkuz]

Back again!!!

Now i have done my first treatment with PP, and all turned out well!!!
No problem at all, all fish is alive and doing well and under the pp treatment they eat “had to try” and some of them started too do the shake n dance when i did the HO2O neutralise "the breeding pair"!!! so NO stress at all!

Did it at 2 ppm dose.
lower the temp.
A lot of air suppley.
clean everything out before and did a big water change
But still water turned brown before 4 hours, just made it to 3,5 hour but think it where useless at 3 hour treat!

Anyway!

1, If i want to do a flukes fight, when will i do my next treat and how many of PP treatments will kill the fluke totally???

2, And how about the filter??? It will be flukes egg in it? and i have too do the treatment whit out it becuse the bakteria in it will be killed,

Anyone know how too do this in good why???

Regards Dizkuz

ps And thanks too all of u that have been posting in this thread...

[kjmillerfw]

kfmillerfw,.......
Your dechlor (sodium thiosulphate) will also neutralize your PP. If you
over-dechlor your water, it will turn purple to brown rather quickly!!!

I use 2 glasses to monitor the progress of my "reaction" after the tank has fully equilibrated. I take a sample then, and pull another sample periodically to see how it has changed. If they are changing (turning from pink to orange) at the same rate (assuming the water itself is relatively clean), i assume the PP is being neutralized by the dechlor and not the reaction with the organics.

I agree with Kaceyo on the math.... the 2ppm vs. 4ppm.

2ppm/15000ppm x 3.72L (i.e. 1 USgallon)=0.0005L or 0.5ml

what you want over what you have times the final volume equals how much to use of what you have...

I personally put 5 grams PP into 1 liter of water (5000 ppm) and use 1.5ml per gallon (3.72L) to make it 2ppm.

I have never killed a fish, once i started doing it this way, but killed several within 30 minutes by using other ways.

ALSO, just in case you get your fingers badly stained by pure PP, peel an orange, or rub a vitamin C tablet on it, and the staining comes right off.

Paul (aka Gordo)

Good idea...I'll try that next time. I use ChlorAm-X and that could very well be the problem. I remember reading somewhere that ChlorAm-X will interfere with some dye meds, so I suppose that it's possible that it has an effect on the PP too?

I'll certainally test it and report back.

Thanks Paul and Paul for the input.

Kathy

[Graham]

Diskuz...you would be better off using Prazi or PraziPro to clear out flukes than the PP. Microscopic scrapes and scopes after PP treatments, even multiple ones, have shown some flukes still around in gill filaments in Koi. I have no reason to think that discus would be any different.

Dactylogyrus/gill flukes lay eggs and these eggs end up in the water column, hence in the filter. In warm water the hatch in about 4 days, probably sooner at discus temps.....so you're second treatment should be about 3 to 4 days later and 4 days after that.

Gyrodactylus/body flukes are live bearers and their life cycle is mainly on the fish....they are always pregant.......... So one treatment cleans the majority of them out........

Kathy any of the de-chlors or peroxide if overdosed slightly will leave ambient levels that stay active in the water for several days. This is one of the reasons not to stop the treatment or neutralize it so treatments can be made on consecutive days. I've seen H2O2 kill a PP treatment 3 days later because of the amounts used.

G