Potassium Permanganate

[lhforbes12]

It seems to me that regardless of whether or not PP is effected by strong light, keeping lights off would reduce stress to fish already stressed from the PP. I personally have always kept my lights on, but I think I will give lights off a try. Thanks for the idea Paul

[dizkuz]

Thanks for all help about this!

qoute

"PP is more dangerous in alkaline water than acid water it is is more toxic at higher pH. In alkaline conditions a solid precipitate of manganese dioxide (MnO2) can form on gills. This can cause respiratory problems by blocking the gills. Additionally, MnO2 is a strong oxidising agent and presumably in such a situation could cause other gill-tissue damage."

One more question do!

So all stock solutions we are talking about here is for water below PH 7, acid water ???

And if the water is alkaline water higher and PH 7 then u need to go for a half dose of PP???

for a example
PH under 7= 1 ml will treat 1 gallon at 2 ppm.?
PH above 7= 0,5ml will treat 1 gallon at 2 ppm.?

Anyone know this?
Please a last enlighting here
Going to my friends house this weekend too do some soultion.

Cheers Dizkuz

[Graham]

PP is totally safe at any pH level that we may use in our aquariums or ponds....If the above statements held true then no one with a pond or africians could use PP or would have to adjust dosage levels and that is just not the case.

PP is used right up to and sometimes higher than 4ppm as a long term...like 8 hours, dose...at bath levels 6ppm and dip at 8 to 10ppm (dangerous) regardless of pH.

G

http://www.koivetforums.com/forums/s...4466post204466
http://koivet.com/html/articles/arti...term=potassium permanganate
http://koivet.com/html/articles/arti...term=potassium permanganate

[dizkuz]

Hi again all!

Now the stock Solution is done!

We did the Solution from http://aquariafreaks.com/VB/showthread.php?t=31

quote
1-Throughly wash and dry a 1 liter (1000 ml) poly soda bottle.
2-Fill the bottle half full of hot tap water.
3-Add two and one-half (2-1/2) LEVEL Teaspoons of PP to the bottle.
4-Cap the bottle and shake very well for one minute.
5-Let the resulting purple-black solution stand for 10 to 15 minutes. Shake occasionally.
6-Invert the bottle and inspect the bottom and sides for any PP crystals which have not dissolved. Continue shaking until all have dissolved.
7-Top-off the bottle with additional tap water (hot, cold, warm... no matter) and shake once more to mix.

The resulting "stock solution" contains 15 grams of potassium permanganate per liter (15g/L of KMnO4 or a 1.5% dilution). The entire contents of this one liter bottle will treat 2000 US gallons at a dose of 2 ppm. You can use the following table to accurately dose any system:

Dose Table for Small Aquaria (under 500 gallons) Using the Stock Solution Created Above

* 1 ppm = 0.5 ml of stock solution per US Gallon
* 2 ppm = 1 ml of stock solution per US Gallon
* 3 ppm = 1.5 ml of stock solution per US Gallon
* 4 ppm = 2 ml of stock solution per US Gallon
* 5 ppm = 2.5 ml of stock solution per US Gallon
* 6 ppm = 3 ml of stock solution per US Gallon
* 20 ppm = 10 ml of stock solution per US Gallon


Question about the doze;

* 2 ppm = 1 ml of stock solution per US Gallon
still i only get this to 1000 gallon!

So is the 2000 gallon wrong or the dose at * 2 ppm = 1 ml of stock solution per US Gallon????

Please help me out! I´m gonna use this tomorrow and I do not wan´t do a 4 ppm treatment!

So do i read this wrong???

by the way,

Quote
I use 35% h2o2 to neutralise, I use a 5ml syringe, very accurate and easy control, depending on tank size, 2 or 3 drops at a time and wait works well, smaller the tank fewer drops each time. Be careful with it though it is corrosive on your skin.

Quesstion,
How many drop do u use to 100 l???


And thank u all for your help about this thread!
Regards dizkuz.

[kaceyo]

My friend,
The above recipe of 15 grams PP powder in 1000 liters of water will give a stock solution with which 1ml in 1gal water = 4ppm. I had a feeling you didn't quite get it in our PM's but I'm sure this is correct. The 1000 ml of solution will treat 2000 gallons at 2ppm as said in the aquafreaks recipe, but their dosing table is wrong. If you dose at 1ml per gallon you'll get a 4ppm treatment. If you want 2ppm, add 1ml per 2gals.
HTH,

Kacey

[kjmillerfw]

So am I understanding this correctly? If the water turns brown before the 4 hrs. treatment is over, you should neutralize and that's it? In other words, don't add more stock solution?

When I read this comment "Water should remain purple throughout the 4 hour treatment", I interpret that to mean that you should add more stock solution to keep it purple.

When I did a treatment a few weeks ago, my water started turning brown within 30 to 45 mins. That seemed way too fast for me. While I didn't wipe down the heater cords, and the sponge filter lines, I did do a pretty good cleaning beforehand. I used the stock solution recommended in Carol's article.

[pcsb23]

So am I understanding this correctly? If the water turns brown before the 4 hrs. treatment is over, you should neutralize and that's it? In other words, don't add more stock solution?

When I read this comment "Water should remain purple throughout the 4 hour treatment", I interpret that to mean that you should add more stock solution to keep it purple.

When I did a treatment a few weeks ago, my water started turning brown within 30 to 45 mins. That seemed way too fast for me. While I didn't wipe down the heater cords, and the sponge filter lines, I did do a pretty good cleaning beforehand. I used the stock solution recommended in Carol's article.

Basically if its gone brown, its spent. Either the organics in the water or tank were too high or the dose was too low. I personally do NOT encourage people to add more PP at this stage, neutralise, mega w/c and redo is the safest way. I have, to use G's phrase, seen more doses blown by adding more when the water has gone brown than under any other circumstances.

hth,

[dizkuz]

You got my back kaceyo!!!
Thanks dude!
i thought it was 4 pmm
u are!!!!

[obsessed]

kfmillerfw,.......
Your dechlor (sodium thiosulphate) will also neutralize your PP. If you
over-dechlor your water, it will turn purple to brown rather quickly!!!

I use 2 glasses to monitor the progress of my "reaction" after the tank has fully equilibrated. I take a sample then, and pull another sample periodically to see how it has changed. If they are changing (turning from pink to orange) at the same rate (assuming the water itself is relatively clean), i assume the PP is being neutralized by the dechlor and not the reaction with the organics.

I agree with Kaceyo on the math.... the 2ppm vs. 4ppm.

2ppm/15000ppm x 3.72L (i.e. 1 USgallon)=0.0005L or 0.5ml

what you want over what you have times the final volume equals how much to use of what you have...

I personally put 5 grams PP into 1 liter of water (5000 ppm) and use 1.5ml per gallon (3.72L) to make it 2ppm.

I have never killed a fish, once i started doing it this way, but killed several within 30 minutes by using other ways.

ALSO, just in case you get your fingers badly stained by pure PP, peel an orange, or rub a vitamin C tablet on it, and the staining comes right off.

Paul (aka Gordo)

[lhforbes12]

I use 2 glasses to monitor the progress of my "reaction" after the tank has fully equilibrated. I take a sample then, and pull another sample periodically to see how it has changed. If they are changing (turning from pink to orange) at the same rate (assuming the water itself is relatively clean), i assume the PP is being neutralized by the dechlor and not the reaction with the organics.

This is a great idea!

btw I am the author of that article and the table came straight from the University of Florida... damn the UF! <grin>

[Green Country Discus]

I am no expert on this but, will give our method. We use it to clean up our breeders when we first set them up, clean our storage tubs etc. We have never lost a fish using PP but if you don't pay close attention they will go quickly. First of all, if you treat a weak/sick fish, they will stress quickly to this dose. Healthy Discus do not enjoy the treat but do tolerate it. We do find that PH and softness DO make a difference. Those in 7.0 Ph and soft water show no signs of stress for a 4 hour treat, while those in PH 7.6 and harder 165ppm show stress much sooner but if healthy will last for the 4 hour treat. Our mix 1 1/2 tps pp to 1 gal of water. 1/4 cup of this solution to 30 gal of tank water. Neutralize with 1 cap of 3% peroxide per 1/4 cup of solution used. Be careful with watching for color due to certain bulbs showing the treat in a different color. Already mentioned, if dechlor is present, it will neutralize before any positive affect will be realized. Back to back treats will stress the fish much faster on the second day. I would not recommend back to back dosing, would rather wait at least 3 days. We do 75% WC when treat is complete. BE CAREFUL, neutralize if they start to clamp and lean. Do not leave while treating!!!! HTH

[kaceyo]

"neutralize if they start to clamp and lean" via Andrew
This brings up a good question. How much stress is acceptible, or at what point should a treatment be discontinued due to fish stress. What behavior indicates the end of the treatment. If the fish are simply inactive or dark or fins clamped, is that enough to warrent stopping the treatment? Most of my treatments would be cut off fairly early if clamped fins and turning darker than norm meant ending the treatment. In one case I had a fish actually start rolling before I quit. I didn't deliberatly let it go that far and it was one of my first trials with PP, and the fish was fine afterwards, but I did feel it was a close call.
So at what signs or symptoms do you all stop due to stress? I know it's subjective but in general what are the deciding factors.

Kacey

[Graham]

kacey if the fish was rolling then it was from lack of O2. If the dose is correct then there should be very little distress signs from the fish. If the dose is too heavy then gill lamellae and fin tips will be ''brunt'' and the water will also be very low in O2.

Proper dose levels, 2ppm > 4ppm, should be allowed to go for as long as they stay purple. There is no need to stop the reaction.

G

[kaceyo]

Graham,
I use a gram scale to measure each treatment now, tho at the time of the fish rolling I wasn't, and I would add more PP if the color turned orange/brown. Still, even at 2ppm, the fish are usually sitting in one spot along the back, or at one end off the tank, looking dark and fins clamped by the 1/2 way point of the treatment. If they go to the top It's likely lack of O2 and should be stopped immediatly. But if it's only the other symptoms, along with leaning or not, which of you think that calls for the end of treatment and which not. This is assuming the water is still purple/pink and not orange/brown.

Kacey

[lhforbes12]

I know my discus, even if given a 2 ppm treatment, always show at least a lttle stress, usually turning dark and heavily breathing, even though I always add more aeration when dosing PP. I was first told they should get a 6 hour treatment with PP but I have never gone beyond 4 hours since my fish seem to get more stressed as the time goes beyond 4 hours. btw I seldom use dechlor or H2O2, preferring instead to do a 100% wc. This seems to work better for me for some reason. The fish snap out of it immediately following the wc.