I'll never use PP again

[Kenny's Discus]

Sometimes, the problem one might encounter when using exact measurement of PP is that if your tank is full of organic matter, the regular dosage(2mg/L) will be deactivated and will turn into muddy/brown color. IME depending on how much organic matter you have in the tank, even when you redose subsquently the color will still change rather quickly.

I'd say if you want to use exact measurement, make sure your tank is thoroughly cleaned a couple days prior(if you use water conditioner like Prime) because newly added Prime will deactivate PP as well.

There has always been hundreds of different suggestion when it comes to the discussion of administering Potassium Permanganate. IMHO I'd say use what works for you.

Hope all will be well with you and your fish Tina.

Kenny

[Graham]

Kenny the ideal way to use PP is with an Orp meter and then maintain the reading at the 500>550mv range. This will have max kill affect without killing the fish.

The other way is to use a known dose and then maintain the the colour as it looses it's punch with repeated known doses. The 1st dose or two will oxidize the organics away and then it'll start working on the fish and thier possible bugs. Regular repeated doses at 2mg/l/ppm is quite safe.............PP dips are nothing but dangerous and just looking for colour is just asking for it, as Tina unfortunately found out

A few links that can be related back to general fish husbandry

http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...search_term=PP

http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...search_term=PP

This one may not come up unless you register......great site. no spam and tons of good info from Roark www.click2roark.com
http://www.click2roark.com/cgi-win/w...cument=xxindex

[Kenny's Discus]

Hi Graham - no disrespect to you & realistically I agree: the ideal way to use PP is with an exact measurement; practically, I myself do not think so but it's just me here.

Here're a few more old threads with discussion of PP usage:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showt...m+permanganate

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showt...anganate+usage

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showt...anganate+usage




Kenny

[Graham]

No disrespect taken Kenny....I scanned through the links you posted and while there is some good info in there...there's lots of "I've heard '' info and that's when fish get killed.

PP is one of the most commonly used meds on ponds, I use it all the time when I have a problem...I also have a gram scale and know the exact gallonage of my pond. I know that for my 5055 gallons I need 57.5 gms and that will give me a 3ppm dose...no worry about killing my fish.


But for a hobbyist not to weigh out or dose out CC wise, the exact amounts for thier water volumes to achieve a certain ppm is just asking for trouble.

Get some GF and dose them at the level you normally use and them examine thier gills under a scope.....at 2pp > 4ppm no difference...this a great and safe level,,,at 5ppm > thier will be showing oxidized cells. Continual and regular low level use will show swollen/hyperplasia lammellae.

I love the stuff but caution is needed........

G

PS Prime, hydrogen peroxide and other de-chlors can still be present in water 24 hours later and affect repeated doses

[Kenny's Discus]

I understand what you were saying Graham. Thank you for the info.

Kenny

[tpl*co]

Graham is there an easy way to measure oxidation reduction potential (ORP) other than an ORP meter? How do you measure the concentration of the PP with it and then the neutralization? Of course I found out that fish also react differently to the stuff also .

Tina

[AADiscus]

I'm sorry to hear about your lose Tine. That really sucks! We use PP often. I wouldn't say all the time but as a maintance type thing. Anytime we set up a new breeder pair we will PP treat them. Like Kenny mentioned, make sure your tank is clean. Take sponges and any filter media out. Lots of air for oxygen and make sure your water doesn't have any prime or water conditioner in it. (whatever you use).

[tpl*co]

The thing is I know the container I used was clean because I didn't do it in a main tank (thankfully) but in a smaller tank (container) that I was using to treat them before transfering them to the other tank. It was just transfered tank water and an airstone . Since it was just used for this, there shouldn't have been a build-up of organic matter (besides any that may have been on the airstone, since it came from an established tank). The most logical explaination is that I overshot the endpoint color in that the color was lighter in the smaller volume of water (easier for the light to penetrate) which made me think I needed more PP. A larger volume of water at the same concentration would have appeared darker.

Tina

[Graham]

Tina the only way that I know of to measure REDOX is with a meter and the doses are monitored all the time. A tank with great water will have an ORP reading in the 350 to 400mv at all times so bringing it up to 500 or so doesn't take a lot of PP...probably in the 2ppm range.

Having said that.....I personally hate ORP meters and I threw mine out years ago. I rely on measured doses and known water volumes

Depending on what I'm trying to do..I'll let 2ppm flow through my well established bio-filters, and not expierence any die back......while I'll bypass them using 3 or 4ppm.

I also have a big bottle of Amquel around at all times, along with peroxide.

If you can stand the politics and the personal crap do a search on Kiophen..the PhD chemists and the experts had a few good discussions

G

[billeagan]

Tina,

Here is the link I promised...

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA02700.pdf

If you follow the instructions for making a gallon it holds for a year.

I went to the drug store and got one of those plunger dispensers for giving kids medicine they give them away free here in Chi town..

I put one cc per 10 gallons (my 150 gets 15 cc's) and watch the water turn. Hit again if the water turns a third time.

I have never had a problem.... Of course to be really sure you can follow Graham's advice and get the ORP.

This is such a low dose you should be fine. I use this on my cardinal tetras with no loss.

Bill

[tpl*co]

Thanks Bill,

I didn't make the original stock PP solution so tonight I tried to figure out the concentration of the stock solution I have by back titrating with 3% hydrogen peroxide, but it is hard to see the endpoint when the solution goes from purple to brown (and I don't have access to the proper lab equipment anymore after taking a desk job) I tried to do a rough calculation by adding the PP solution to some hydrogen peroxide and then some hydrogen peroxide to a dilute pp and I came up with different amounts since it was hard to judge the endpoint by eye. I was trying to figure out after the fact what color I should have gone to in the container I used. I do believe you are correct in it is best to know what the concentration of the stock solution is at the time it is made and then dilute accordingly to the volume of the water the fish is in. That would be the safest way. But in reading more there seems to be a big variable in how well different fish can take the treatment and there is no knowing how well or not so well a fish can tolerate PP, even at a low dose of 2 ppm. Therefore I think I'll pass using it on fish anymore and just use what I have to disinfect things.

Tina