Conditions for discus

[Cjbear087]

So I have made many posts about this, my water is very hard with a dGH of 23, and my pH (aged) is normally 8.7. So basically the worst possible water conditions for discus. Now, in all these posts I have been told many varying views - some saying they will be able to adapt but not breed (which I dont want to do anyway) and others saying they wont be able to thrive in those conditions. Even today KavemanAquatics himself told me that he doesnt think they are good for discus. So - for all the people saying they will be able to adapt, maybe so, but from all the research and asking I have been doing it seems that yes, they can be kept like this, but it isnt ideal - and I want "ideal". So I can go about this many ways. Firstly, I know that pH is much more important for discus as opposed to the hardness. However, if I can find something that lowers GH and pH, that would be very good. So some options: I could use a buffer (e.g. Seachem Discus Buffer - has anyone used this?), I could use peat moss in my filter to lower pH significantly and lower GH slightly or as the final option I know of - an RO/DI filter. This one I am trying to stay away from however as they are expensive and SLOW. So, if anyone has any ideas of other good methods to lower these or wants to convince me that discus (of the stendker variety) will be fine in this water - enlighten me. I'm all ears

[jwcarlson]

You cannot add anything to the water that's going to drop your hardness content, you need to remove it. It's got to be RO. Peat moss might take a tiny bit of hardness and lower your pH a bit, but with your hardness levels it would take two truckloads of peat pellets to move the needle at all most likely.

I use RO for fish I'm trying to breed that need softer water for egg laying. And it works OK, but even then it's a big pain and takes a long time to make water. And there's a ton of reject water, which may or may not be a problem for you depending on water costs. If your pH of 8.7 is real, it's quite a bit higher than mine is at 8.2-8.3. And while my discus have been "OK". I'm about to lose the 4th one of the 10 I started with. While none of them have been from "hard water". I think having them in water that's so conducive for bacterial growth probably helps contribute to issues longer term. That said, if I had to use RO to keep discus there's no way I would do it. Too much circus/work.

[Cjbear087]

I don’t think hardness if too much of a problem, it’s much more about the pH (correct me if I’m wrong). What do you think about using a buffer?

[jwcarlson]

I don’t think hardness if too much of a problem, it’s much more about the pH (correct me if I’m wrong). What do you think about using a buffer?

A buffer isn't taking anything away, it's adding to. You don't need anything added to. Those buffers are typically for remineralizing RO water.

[Cjbear087]

A buffer isn't taking anything away, it's adding to. You don't need anything added to. Those buffers are typically for remineralizing RO water.

If you look up Seachem Discus Buffer, it says it adjusts pH to 5.8-6.5 and lower general hardness.

[jwcarlson]

You'd need gobs of it to make any meaningful adjustment. AND you need to add it to any water you're changing.

[jwcarlson]

Here's the directions:

Use 1 level teaspoon (5 g) for every 40-80 L (10-20 US gallons) daily until intended pH is reached. Thereafter, use once a month or with water changes as required to maintain pH.For precise dosing use the Seachem Digital Spoon Scale. To raise pH, use Neutral Regulator®. To target a particular pH use in combination with Neutral Regulator® following the chart. This chart assumes the use of unbuffered water (RO or DI). If water is already buffered use the chart as a starting guide. Use Prime® to dechlorinate tap water before doing a water change.

You can always do an experiment. If you have a good, calibrated pH probe. Take a gallon of water and stir in a teaspoon of the buffer... measure pH, wait a while. Measure again... add more... repeat repeat repeat. Then crank out how much you'll need to use for a modest water change.

The other issue here is these products might be safe in limited quantities in RO. But whatever the ingredients are at concentrations to lower GH and pH in your water could be detrimental.
Not to mention the possibilities of pH swinging wildly.

[jwcarlson]

Also, fair warning... I am not a chemist. But those minerals are going somewhere. I would guess they precipitate out of solution and you are going to end up with a lot of mineral.. sludge? Somewhere... aging barrel or the tank... both...

[CliffsDiscus]

My ph was running 8.9 by adding Discus Buffer the ph came down to 7 with one teaspoon per 10 gallon, but in the long run even after adjusting the ph continue to drop till it crash. I was using neutral regulator, coral buffer and chiclid buffer to adjust the ph. Finally I left
the ph at 8.9 no problem, they spawn also at this ph.

[jwcarlson]

How high was your KH, Cliff?
How high is your KH, Charlie? I misread GH as KH earlier.

[Cjbear087]

KH 10 degrees, GH 23.

[Willie]

Seachem Discus Buffer does not work. It's a phosphate based buffer and bacteria in the water column will start to assimilate phosphate and buffering capacity will be gone in 2 - 3 days.

Having said that, you don't need to buffer your water. Nor do you need to "replace" minerals. Amazon river water has extremely low levels of dissolved solids - hence it's so soft. I've raised water in 100% R/O for 5 - 7 years without adding minerals. Not only did they grow, but the pairs spawned frequently. What's often sold in the hobby is more about marketing than science.

[Cjbear087]

Really? That would be really easy if so, but I have heard the pure RO kills fish?;

[Willie]

Really? That would be really easy if so, but I have heard the pure RO kills fish?;

Nobody told my discus.

[LizStreithorst]

I've used 100% RO myself years ago. My fish did just fine, same as Willie's.