At what age can you start using PP on fry?

They are 23 days old today and I just found the first dead fry. I treated with formlin 2 weeks ago (1.5 drps p/gal) when I noticed some gill rubbing and don't want to treat again. There has been a little rubbing the last two days but not enough to worry about untill I found the dead guy. He was one of the smaller guys I would have ended up culling anyways but still. I'm doing 2 wc's daily and wiping tank walls down at least every other day along with squeezing the sponge. I'm still not going to treat unless it becmes a real prob but would like to try PP if it becomes nescesary. Whats the earliest PP can be used and at what dose?
Thanks,

Kacey

Kacey I have not done it on young Discus but I went back into my files of stuff I saved from Jim Quarles years ago and this is what he said:
Warning:::: PP should never be used on small discus under 3 inch in total size. If you use enough to kill the parasites you will also burn the fish gills of small discus.

Here is his dosage in case you need it for your larger Discus.

Potassium permanganate powder Treatment of extrenal parasites, external lesions, bacteria on the skin. Fungi, protozoa, monogenea, hirudinea ( leeches ) crustacea ( argulus, lernaea.) 22.8 grams to 4 oz. Of water. The use 2 drops per gallon=5ppm. Should be used only in ph range of 7 or above.

Thanks George,
That makes sense. Such a small amount of tissue on the fry gets burnt too easily. I'll just consentrate on keeping water and tank clean as I've been doing.

Kacey

Sent you an email Kacey.

PP can also be used at the dosage of 1/8th tsp./20gal of water, but it is not a choice of treatment I recommend. I am not convinced that adult discus do not suffer gill damage. This was the overused/misused treatment so popular in the '90's on the forum, but not used so much today. Salt and heat have become today's overused/misused treatment.

Are you sure it is gill flukes? Why not a second treatment and third treatment with formalin? One treatment will never work. Fluke Tabs are safe for three week old fry. I've used them on 2 week old fish. Use full dosage on package insert or container. Do not use at 1/2 dosage. You are wasting your time and money. Remove any plecoes in the tank first.

You may have a bacterial infection in which case I would use neomyacin sulfate.

Mat

ps. - The self proclaimed "Discus God" from Down Under claimed to have used PP on fry several days old with no ill effects. But, then again, he made many such claims on many varied topics before his sudden disappearance.

Hey Mat,
I really wasn't convinced using PP on 1" fry was a good idea but thought it worth asking about as I've had good experiences using it on my larger fish. I know Ryan (Orlando Discus) has used it at that stage without problems and I found a couple of other places on the web that agreed, but just as many that didn't. I havn't needed to use anything on my fry other than Epsom salt for bloat and formalin once on artificially raised fry. That time one dose of formalin did it. Not this time. I also considered Dylox (since I have some) as I know Fluke Tabs have been used on small fry, but don't know the dosage of dylox in Fluke Tabs. I don't like to use formalin if I can avoid it as it plays havoc on the biofilter.
I ended up using Parasite Clear, which did the trick and they are doing 100% better now.
Do you know of cases where properly used PP treatments are suspected of causing gill damage? It does seem like that would be a big concern but I've never seen anything but speculation written up on the subject.
Thanks,

Kacey

Just the claims of various users of PP. I have no idea if it is true or not. My thinking is that if it is strong enough to oxidize protozoas, then why not the membrane on any fish's gills?

The reason I mentioned one formalin treatment will not rid a tank of flukes is because the life cycle of the pest. Generally at least 3 treatments over 7 days is recommended.

Mat

Kacey and Mat, I happen to be a big fan of PP used properly and have used it on young fry, recently on some 2 week olds with the desired results. It was totally my fault that I had to treat. Usually, I treat all pairs with PP as they are set up in breeding tanks to eliminate any nasties, this time I did not:( . IMHO, flukes are too often blamed for fry problems when it is indeed bacterial and or poor maintenance, ie: lack of proper cleaning and WCs = bacteria problems. If flukes are the problem then prazi is the way to go. I do agree Mat that salt and heat are way over recommended. IMO, when fry are dropping, formalin treatment does more harm than good. I would never recommend the use of PP for anyone unfamiliar with its use.

Hey Andrew,
I have had only good experiences with PP treatments, though I did scare myself with it the second time I used it. No harm was done so it was a good lesson learned. I've only had to treat fry
for flukes once before and a single dose of formalin took care of it without need for further treatments. When one dose didn't work this time I looked for something else as I agree that formalin wasn't a good choice.
When you used the PP on the 2 week olds did you use the same consentration and go as long as you would for adults?
Thanks,

Kacey

I would prefer to use acriflavine for all size of fishes for suspected gill glukes cases. And they are readily available too like PP. PP would be too strong in my opinion for babies. Moreover, they stain the glass and you need to renew them when it's expended (water turn brownish).

I do note that you scrub your tanks every other day. Do you think its necessary?

Hi Edward,
I've never used acriflavin at all so I don't now how well it works. From what I've read I'd think there are better things around for flukes but thats based soley on what is recommended by others. When raising fry from eggs I think keeping the tank walls wiped down is absolutly necessary, along with squeezing out the sponge filter. In fact I've started doing it daily instead of every other day since I started losing fry. My adult tanks get wiped down once a week and that is plenty under normal conditions. But fry need a very low bioload environment to really thrive and the bbs can foul the tank and build up in the filter very quickly.
BTW, I haven't lost one fry since the Parasite Clear treatment, which I'll repeat tomorow.
Thanks,

Kacey

Kacey, I have found that cleaning the sponge daily makes a big difference with fry health. I do use PP at "my" regular dose with the fry and for a 2 hour duration. I was starting to loose a couple of fry a day with that batch and after treatment all is well. I find that a 2 hour treatment is right with PH of 7.6. In our breeding tanks with a PH of 7, 4 hours works fine without causing extreme duress with the fish. I have never used acriflavin. I do feel that Prazi is the ticket for flukes. HTH

Hi
You can ask from Andrew soh
He has great experience to using PP.
It is my idea and you can try it. You do not loss anything if asking him.

Regards
Afshin

Thanks to all for the advice. Hopefully in the future I won't need to treat my fry. My previous spawns all did fine on wipedowns and sponge cleaning every other day, but this has convinced me I need to do it daily for the first couple of months, along with cleaning up the breeders before hand.

Kacey

Kacey,

Are you sure you had flukes? I know of no one who has ever cured a case of flukes with one treatment with any drug/chemical. This is because of the reproductive cycle of the fluke.

Mat