treating with PP

Is there anybody who explain me exact term of using PP?
THX

I can't eplain it exactly. I mix some of the crystal powder with water in a liter bottle. I pull the sponges from the filter and put them in a bucket. The i pour some of the purple PP water into the tank . . . a dollop at a time until the water is medium purple. Watch the fish, leave the PP in the tank for 4 hours, then add hydrogen peroxide one capful at a time until the water turns clear. Then I do a partial water change. Finally I put the rinsed sponges back in the tank.

Potassium permanganate, at least I can say that much. Carol, what is it used for? Disinfecting?

pp has been around for years, my dad used to say it freshened the water so i guess it is a disenfectant. i never heard of the hydrogen peroxide though, we would use an eye dropper and put in enough to turn the water sightly purple and we would do a water change the next day.the purple color went away in a few hours. i still have some powder and some mixed in a jar but i havent used it in years. i have planted tanks now and dont know what effect it will have on the plants. anybody using it in a planted tank? is it safe? Carol i am wondering what the hydrogen peroxide does can u explain? how often do u use it? thanks jim from queens

Hydrogen peroxide has been around for years too, you'll find it in the drug stores for disinfecting cuts :). It'll react with the potassium permanganate thus turning the water clear.

OK, it bugged me I couldn't remember the redox reaction between potassium permanganate and hydrogen peroxide so I had to look it up! Found a neat article on potassium permanganate and fish disease:

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/...rmanganate.htm

OK, for you chemists out there, here's the reaction equation of why the purple goes away, LOL:

Potassium permanganate is KMNO4 and is purple:

in solution it makes the MNO4- ion (purple):
hydrogen peroxide is H2O2

5 H2O2 + 2 MnO4- + 6 H+ = 2 Mn+2 + 5 O2+ 8 H2O

LOL, I guess there has to be an acid in the mix also? Well, I guess my chemistry degree isn't a waste :).

For what you hear from the forum is how dangerous PP is and also can kill your fish. Ask yourself how did they come to that conclusion. How would they know if they never use them before just becasue they were so dangerous to them. I feel sorry for those who'd said that. I'm sure they do have problems with their fish with infection and eating problems without telling the truth.
Many hundreds of hobbyists came to me and threw their arms up and admitted defeat by the constant infection and white poop problems. Many were about to give up discus all together. PP saved their hobby and many become breeders themselves.
I don't want to elaborate how effective PP is to maintain healthy discus and quarantine imports. The key of keeping discus is the water condition. PP can keep it crystal clear regardless of how much you feed and how often you do water change. There are only a few useful information about PP that I feel are justify to the hobbyists. Most are misleading and false claims by someone who never use the product before.
If your are haunted by constant infection, eating problems, white poo and fry or egg eating parents. Follow Carol's instructions and you may want to try using PP every 3 days to break the bacterial cycle. It's important to do that for all imports until they are begging for food and never have enough to eat. Only unhealthy fish will be affected by PP treatment. Helathy fish will still beg for food, chase each others and even court in PP. If they fold their fins and generally feel uncomfortable, rest them for 2 days and do it again. You may find that's all the medication besides dewormer that you need to bring them back the way you like them.
One secret I can share with you. A very rich old timer is now in jail for tax evasion used to PP his water in the storage tank a day before using it on his fish. He never had to use any medication. Even got his wild Heckel to spawn successfully in pp treated water.
Jimmy

Hi Carol. So all sponges you are pulling? Just to be sure. Meaning if you have AC and hydros?

Jim. Interesting doing that in storage tank.

No one is saying not to use PP, it is just to use it in Moderation. You can't dispute the evidence it is a strong oxidizer and very reactive. Just like many compounds or medications, a little can help, a lot can do a great deal of harm. I found it interesting that you can't use PP with formaldehyde which is a common ingredient in many fish cures too (like quick cure). A little knowledge is a powerful thing and it is better to know what you are doing to save your fish instead of dumping things in not knowing how much or what things are doing with what and hoping for the best.

What I am mad at is the lack of knowledge and availability of medicines at local fish stores or pet shops. I bet if you go to a pet store (say Petsmart) and ask about using PP you'll get a blank stare. Many of the medicines I use I had to search for.

JimmyL, sounds like you've used PP before how much PP do you use in your tank? (final concentration of PP per gallon?) That info would be very helpful of what is a theraputic dose of PP for discus (since it isn't sold with fish directions on the label LOL).

PP will kill the good bacteria in the sponges. I put all the cycled media in a bucket during treatment so the bio stays alive.

Thanks Carol.

TeddyJ was the first one to use it the way like Carol's. We had many discussions at those days and finally decided that using color as indicator instead of amount per gallon method is the safest way to apply on our fish as the duration of effectiveness changes in direct relationship with the organic matters in the water. We had many fights and name calling in many forums and I had daily e-mail with Jim Q talking about it as he was the one who started the discussion that PP kill, killl, and kill and he would not touch it with a 10 foot pole. Unfortunately it instilled in many people's mind and the knowledge has passed along with some well read hobbyists supports Jim's theories. PP and formaldehyde applied alternatively but not together was actually the secret formaula for Asian fish farms to combate black disease and velvet disease before any new medication was discovered. It was a common ingredients but now it's not politically correct to disscus the result of this combination in a pure form. It's best not to talk about it and just simply don't use it TOGETHER with a pound of pp crystal?????....in case some evil minded individual get some funny ideas. Do a search in our library and I think I have an article on PP and it's usage that you may find useful.
Jimmy

Hi Jimmy,
you mentioned above about PP making your water crystal clear and about the old fella PP the water in his storage tank a day before WC, it didn't state using HP to reverse the PP so that it becomes crystal clear. If PP is used alone, then the water would become brownish after it's spent. Please correct me if I am mistaken. Tks.

Rgds
Sindhu

I searched for this article around the web about PP.
I found:
1. The best does is 2mg/l (it depends on the amount of organic in the water)
2. Close observation is to be needed. If its color changes to brown, you should add extra PP to the water. And WC is need when some fishes can't tolerate it.
3. You should neutralize it after 4 hour and do water change.
4. You can repeat it 4 times during 3 days!!!!! (I want to know more about it. are you agree? or one time is enough.)
5. You can use it for preparing water for daily water change.

Some question is:
can I use it regularly ( for example once in a month or 2 months) to avoid some common disease?
please correct what I got, if they are wrong

PP is an oxidizing agent that kill on contact but unable to destroy eggs. Eggs hatch between 3-7 days depending on the species. PP kill undiscriminately including your good nitrobactors. The only way to break the bacterial cycle is to repeat treatment every 3 to 4 days for 2-3 weeks. Otherwise you will be haunted by repeat darkening of their body with excessive slime coat excreting from their pores. upset stomach and so on and so on....Once you have done that. Your fish will be begging for food and will not shy away or hiding. Keep the prestine water condition whenever the water is a touch cloudy. Regardless of how detail you wipe your glasses. Slime will hide in seams and crackes that can't be reached. That's the ideal place for bacterial growth and one day will boom and cause problems. PP can dissolve it and suspend in water. That's H2O2 come to play which solidify the substance and deposit at the bottom of your tank to allow you to syphone it out. You'll find numerous fine black dust at the bottom of the tank when the water is clear after treatment. Beware of the concentration of PP. Now this is where people misinterpret the use of PP. To disinfect is just minor first part, the second part is to maintain water quality which discus needed to thrive on. A pristine water condition will not turn PP to yellow or brown in 4 hours. Only water with too much organic matter will do that. The follow up treatments may only requires 1/5 of the content compared to the previous treatment. That's the reason why a number of mg/gallons varies with each treatment and that's how well read experts condammed PP and kill their fish with the same amount each time and overdose. They are not lying or put PP down. That's the fact but they simply just too mad PP had killed their fish and broadcast about it and not willing to trace back and find out what went wrong with their own procedures. I routinely do PP treatment every 2 weeks regardless how they feel. That's another No No for some experts. Anyway, I'll tell you the truth even someone may think I'm full of whatever.... I don't use any other medication except dewormer after resting the breeders for 3 months between breeding cycles.........with the exception of fry raising which is another ball game entirely as you all know.

Jimmy

Jimmy, at what age can you start using pp on discus?

I don't normally use PP on fry unless they are suddenly huddling together in a little black ball being attacked by fluke and I need fast acting treatment. PP can disperse them in a matter of 15 minutes of treatment then neutralize and leave them on H2O2 until the next water change. I use it as little as the size of baby nail finger. Otherwise Formaline is a preferrable choice for their slow acting properties.
Jimmy

Carol and Jimmy,
Don't the bacteria, flukes or parasites come back unless you treat the sponges?

Yes, you can guarantee they will reproduce and multiply from the sponge come back to haunt you in 2-3 weeks. We have 2 choices here. Disinfect the sponge/filter and risk having an uncycled sponge/filter that will cause Nitrite spike that eventually poison your fish or the other option is to let them reproduce and repeat treatment in 3 days. since most egg hatch in 7-10days. Repeat treatment will basically break the chain of reproduction. Keep doing it for 2 - 3 weeks will most probably elimiate most of it but not all. Repeat in every 2 weeks will keep them in check to have a healthy fish with no chance of infection of any kind just because PP kill undiscriminately. You can acheive the same result with other medications but the total cost will be enormous and risk of antibiotic tolerance may require stronger and heavier dose for future applications.
In addition, the new type of pathgens are more resistance to any chemicals and medication compared to 5 years ago. PP is an old remedy that still work on most but not all. The most unfortunate things is the normal 21 days of quarantine is now unable to eliminated them from the importer's tanks and somehow found their way to many hobbyist's tanks right now. I'm presently testing a whole new line of chemicals that the breeders are using in fish farms and some are proved 10 times more effective than PP but required skills to apply to your fish. They are not ready to the hobbyist's tank yet.
Jimmy

Thanks Jimmy.
I imagine the story is no different for the bacterials and such. To me it makes sense then to clean the sponge thoroughly first, to remove the organics, and then leave it in the tank for the PP treatment, or sterilize it separately. The biofilter cycling can be done again.

Sometimes the fish are just a little off. . . no need to kill the biofilter . . . just PP the tank and fish, clean the sponges in dechlorinated water . . . everybody perks up . . .

HI Jimmy
Finally I decided to use it.
I tried it only one time, some of them feel better and eat their food but the others not. I think I should repeat it again (as you told us).
The only problem is cloudy water after doing it. What should I do?

The other problem is that I am very new to using it and don’t know what amount of purple color is enough. So I should try it whit mg/lit know.

THX

Can this also be used safely in a planted tank??

Hello everyone,

Great topic. Carol, Jimmy, can you answer a couple of questions for me please?

I can only get 30% HP will this do the same job in neutralising PP?

Does the tank light have to be off during treatment?

Do I add PP until I start to see a purple haze in the tank?
I am wary of adding too much!

Thanks for the help

Mark

I have been using pp for awhile now. I was lossing $quarter size youngsters continuiously for sometime. Jimmy suggested pp so I tried it. The first time I had concerns but after you try it you begin to get more comfortable. I have been using a small 5 gallon hospital tank for the treatment. I leave them in it for 4 hours and then add H2O2 by the capful (usually about 2-3), the water clears immediately. What can I say: it has worked for me.
By the way..............excellent thread.
Jim

30%H2O2 is strong for neutralizing PP. Use it in moderation until the color turn yellow or green in 5 min. In fact, too much H2O2 should not affact them only it may burn fins in extremely high concentration.

Azi....Post treatment after neutalizing with H2O2 should be crystal clear and a black organic slush will settle at the bottom and allow you to siphon it out. You may not have enough PP in your initial treatment. Repeat treament with the same amount will extend the duration next time. You may find it clear up with exactly the same treatment. By preparing a stock solution dissolve about 1gm/500cc. Pour slowly and wait until it distributes evenly before adding more. PP is active when blue or reddish purple (wine) and allow you see the fish without light regardless of Ph. I find it work in both acid and alkaline water. Inactive when turn into brown or yellow. As long as it's blue, the concentration is just fine. Light should not affact the effectiveness of PP as it is mainly used for pond fish. Use a white bottom cup to collect water from the pond to check the concentration. I hope you follow up and document your observation in each treatment and dispell the myth of PP which has been hanging along for too long. Show the difference of behaviour of your fish and Prove that I'm wrong and prove to others that PP is dangerous and kill your fish. You will never use it again.... It even give you and your family cancer... I doubt every much that will be the case.

I'm not 100% sure that PP is safe for plants. A local Koi pond dealer PP all his plants before putting them up for sale.

Jim: Glad to see you not working...fishing. You should put some discus in the lake again. We'll do it next summer. I'll supply your with the fish.

Jimmy

Andrew Soh told me before to add PP 4 times in 3 days. It means I should add PP every 18 hours.
Do you think they can tolerate this amount of Med? What is your idea about Andrew's method?

Do you mean continuously for 3 days by adding PP every 18 hours to keep the concentration up? I don't want to contradict others proven treatment. That's not the way I do it. As far as pp treatment is concern. The fish should be watched constantly during the treatment. As long as they start folding their fins and show intolerance to the treatment. I immediately neutralize it and stop the treatment. Rest them for a couple of days and repeat. Only sick fish cannot tolerate the treatment for 4 hours. Duration is very critical. They range from 1/2hr - 4hrs maximum depending on the condition of the fish. Healthy fish sure can tolerate for 24 hours without any problems. It is unnecessary and I cannot keep watching them longer than 4 hours. If I have to leave my fishroom longer than 10 min. I neutralize with H2O2 before leaving . Can't afford to take a chance. That's the beauty of PP that can be stopped any time. You can stop treating your fish with PP or extend the number of days between treatment if you see them begging for food and be able to feed in the dark. You know you have healthy fish. and you will find your fish scatter evenly from bottom to the top of your tank without huddleing at the corner. That's the way they suppose to be. A healthy fish will follow your siphon tube looking for food from the refilling bubbles and don't hide or shy away from you. Any fish do not do that will go to my rosebush as fertilizer. This is the standard or challenge Jim Q and I set when he was alive during our discussion of the pros and cons of PP. I end up getting more and more fish and the poor guy have to go bungie??sp jumping and fry an ultralight plane to ease the frustration his fish had given him by not using PP. We had lots of disagreements and being a wounded veteran threatened to shoot anyone resembling his enemies during the war. We managed to break that barrier with respect to each others knowledge in discus.
Jimmy

Hi everyone,
Thanks again Carol /Jimmy for all the info.

I treated my fish with PP last night for 4 hrs. I did as Carol advised and put in some at a time until the water had a purple tinge.

After 4hrs added HP a little at a time until the water was crystal clear.

I will continue the treatment over the coming days.

The fish are fine and eating well...

Thanks again

Mark Neill
Scotland