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I have Metroplex 100grams (purchased from usa ), Is dose same as Pure Metronidazole ?
Do as Gabe says at Jack Wattley discus? 1 gram per 20 gallons for 10 days or every 8 hours for 3 days?
Or listen to the Sachem Metroplex dose.... 1-2 scoops per 20 gallons, repeat every 48 hours for 3 weeks?
Thanks all !!
Ross,Quote:
Originally Posted by RossM
There are all kinds of "recommendations" out there.1 gram per 20 gals is 500 mg per 10gals. The generally accepted dose is 250-500 mg per 10 gals. Some dose it every 8 hours which doesnt make sense to me... from previous discussions here its based on extrapolated data from non-aquarium conditions. Some also jack.up the temp for similar extropolated reasons... 84 F is fine,Imo.
Your metroplex contains 70% metronidazole... you need to use more to compensate
.
500 MG/10 GALS 7- 10 DAYS.. Large water changes before dosing . This is an effective treat many discus keepers here use.
What are you treating? The above info I just posted is for hexamita/spiro.
Al
Extropolated info..
The half life in humans is 8 hours...
https://www.drugs.com/medical-answer...ly%208%20hours.Attachment 138298
Thats humans that take a pill. Fish are in a continous bath of metronidazole absorbing continuously.... not the same scenario.
And
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7389...8.8%2D10.5%20h.
In humans about 14% percent of the dose is excreted in urine... no idea how much metronidazole fish excrete back into the water that they can reabsorb.
The idea that metronidazole breaks down in water in 8 hours isnt what the science says..
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60852422011257
Attachment 138299
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics.../metronidazole
Attachment 138300
What the sciences shows is its so stable in water that it poses an environmental risk as it accumulates.
Very good info Al, some say its shelf life in water is 8 hours but this info is U TUBE based info what do the the old school breeders do?.
Best temp....?
Best Dose....?
Best Resume...?
US GALLONS/ UK gallons/litres...?
Best diagnose...?
these,s are some of the things we would all like to know...?
Is this Metro not active after around 8 hours.......? how would you test.
Hi Matt,Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Eye.
I posted my thoughts and doses on this.. but as for is metro active after 8 hours.. the literature I linked clearly says yes.. its so stable its around days in ecosystems. The article also implies its poorly metabolized which means its excreted out of the organism unchanged.This means the fish are dosing themselves in the tank.
This happens alot in our hobby.. often times someone reads a snippet or sees a social media blurb and its parroted and becomes gospel. Sadly.. 99 % of the time a hobbyist treating for protozoans doesnt even know thats their problem. When the fish doesnt get better all of a sudden someones starts claiming its drug resistence. .. so the advice comes pouring in.. "you need to dose much much higher and more often to over come the resistent strains". When in reality this scenario creates resistent strains.
This also happens when someone treats their fish for an unidentified problem and the fish gets better.. all of a sudden they are recommending what they did to treat their fish without even knowing what the problem was or if the treatment was what made a difference. Maybe the fishes immune system did the work? Maybe you bumped up your water changes or did something else different that actually is what worked. You need to determine the cause and if there was an effect of the treatment. You need a controlled experiment. Instead we get misinformation which even well meaning can be dangerous.
Just my opinion obviously but thats my story and Im sticking to it. :)
"Your metroplex contains 70% metronidazole... you need to use more to compensate"
Huge thank you!
I shall use 1.5x the dose= 1.5 grams per 20 gallons of Metroplex-70% metronidazole.
Yes, treating for hexamita/spiro.
Huge thanks for the above information!
Yes HUGE thanks too Al......Would going lower in gram dose be better ...or higher in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by RossM
1.5 grams per 20 gallons of Metroplex-70% metronidazole = 100% Metronidazole.
I would not use less, A bit higher would be ok i assume.
I don't know about metroplex compared to pure metro, but I order my pure metro from Ukraine and shipping is free and the best pricing I have found by far from anyone selling it in the United States. What I have done and works beautifully is do a water change prior to treating the tank, the metro will deactivate after 8 hours in the water. The next day do another 50% water change and add metro, continue this for 10 straight days and it works nicely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discus Fever
HI Scott,
Can you tell me where you read that metro deactivates in 8 hours in the water? Can anyone? Thats probably one of the biggest myths in the hobby. Its so entrenched its not even questioned and no one can even point to a research article on it. Its become entrenched in the hobby. I have searched everywhere to try and confirm that and have yet to find anything except articles like the ones I posted here in this thread that tell a much different story.
Having a half life of 8 hours inside a person is not the same as being in water. Its half life is because its metabolized by the body and excreted. I really think the. "8 hour half life" is where the initial claim that metro breaks down in 8 hours. I think from there it just spiraled in the hobby.
We really need to use medications wisely . If you or anyone can point me to a science article that determined Metronidazole becomes inactive in water or aquariums after 8 hours I would really appreciate it.
Al
Al, I am not sure about articles but I was told by Jack Wattley back in the early 90's when I contacted him about Metro he told me that metro stays active in water up to 8 hours. He told me to repeat this treatment with water changes every day for 10 days. This is how I have always done it since then without any adverse reactions ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discus Fever
No idea why Jack Wattley would say that unless that was just something he concluded on his own I have a ton of respect for Jack Wattley but at the end of day he was human like the rest of us and maybe he just got it wrong. Or made assumptions as is common still in the hobby.
Back in the 90's Aquatic Pathologists at University Florida put out a paper..
Management of Hexamita in Ornamental Cichlids
In this paper they make no mention of metro only lasting 8 hours in the water... actually their dosing guidelines imply its in the water alot longer..
Quote:
If fish are already sick and off-feed metronidazole can be administered in a bath at a concentration of 5 mg/l (18.9 mg/gallon) every other day for three treatments. This treatment is effective but may not clear the organism from the fishes' intestinal tract as well as the medicated food.
Footnotes
1. This document is VM 67, one of a series of the Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida. Printed January 1994.
These aquatic pathologists at the time were the experts everyone in the ornamental fish industry in Florida turned to and still do. I would be surprised if they didnt note something as unusual as a medication that breaks down in 8 hours in water. I actually don't know of any antibiotics that do this.
It makes no sense that it would be active only 8 hours and be a huge problem for its persistence in waterways. The research I posted here just really contradicts this 8 hour bit as does everything else I have seen.
I contacted Sachem Laboratory's, They sent me a message stating that Metro Plex lasts longer than 8 hours in the water Colum due to there unique blend.
My message to them.
Big hello from Australia ! I have a question with one of your medications that i am getting conflicting advice on. It is Called Sachem Metro Plex, Several studies that i have heard about the active ingredient "Metronidazole" Is only active in water for 8 hours. What is your take on this please? As i am keeping very expensive Discus fish. Should i treat Metroplex every 8 hours? or listen to your instructions on the Metroplex medication? Also states on Metroplex i can mix it with food and freeze it? But if its only active for 8 hours in water isn't that a waste of money on medications for me? Please help! Gabe Persade from Jack Wattley discus.... Has Videos on using Metronidazole 100%. SO SO eager to hear from you, as i need to medicate my Discus fish asap. Big thankyou in regards to my concerns. Mr Ross M
There reply.... below
The best way to medicate Discus with MetroPlex is to use it in a medicated food mix with our Focus and GarlicGuard. Our MetroPlex is blended to last much longer in the water column. Focus is a binding agent that binds the medication to the food, which facilitates better uptake of the medication. The recipe is a 1:1 ration of MetroPlex to Focus and use GarlicGuard to soak the mixture and allow absorption onto the food. Then you can feed this daily for up to 3-4 weeks. If you are dosing it directly to the water column, it will still be effective but not quite as effective as the food mixture.
J Pharm Sci
. 1993 Jan;82(1):95-8. doi: 10.1002/jps.2600820121.
Degradation kinetics of metronidazole in solution
D P Wang 1, M K Yeh
Affiliations expand
PMID: 8429500 DOI: 10.1002/jps.2600820121
Abstract
The degradation kinetics of metronidazole in aqueous solutions of pH 3.1 to 9.9 under accelerated storage conditions were studied. The stability of metronidazole in solutions containing propylene glycol or polyethylene glycol 400 was also investigated. The reaction order for metronidazole in these aqueous and solvent systems followed pseudo-first-order degradation kinetics. The degradation rate of metronidazole was invariant under various total buffer concentrations at each specific pH within the investigated pH range. These results indicate that no general acid/base catalysis imposed by acetate, phosphate, and borate buffer species is responsible for the degradation of metronidazole. The catalytic rate constants for hydrogen ion, water, and hydroxyl ion for the degradation of metronidazole were 6.11 x 10(-5) M/s, 3.54 x 10(-8) L/s, and 4.10 x 10(-3) M/s, respectively. The pH-rate profile shows a pH-independent region of pH 3.9-6.6. Maximum stability of metronidazole was at pH 5.6 under zero total buffer species conditions. The ionic strength effect on metronidazole degradation in acetate and phosphate buffers followed the modified Debye-Huckel equation well. The Arrhenius plot showing the temperature dependence of metronidazole degradation indicates estimates of activation energy of 15.35 kcal/mol and a half-life of 963 h at room temperature in 0.1 M pH 3.1 acetate buffer solution (ionic strength = 0.5). Irradiation with UV light (254 nm) of the metronidazole solutions (pH 3.1 acetate buffer) accelerated degradation in comparison with light-protected samples. Incorporation of propylene glycol into the metronidazole solution at pH 3.1 increased stability; however, an adverse effect on the stability of metronidazole was seen when polyethylene glycol 400 solvent system was used.
PubMed Disclaimer
Very good example of how stable Metro is..
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...G&opi=89978449
Attachment 138864
Half life metro....
Attachment 138865
al