Understanding Discus and your relationship with them

Excuse the Title of the thread, I was struggling for what to call this discussion and have only had 2 cups of coffee so far.:) I wanted to write down some observations on understanding Discus and to a large degree understanding your relationship with this beautiful fish. I am doing this based on many many interactions with hobbyists over my time in the hobby. I have had many people reach out to me about their fish and issues and goals and ask me for my help and advice. I'm pooling all those inquiries together here so if any of this sounds like something we discussed, rest assured these are common topics.

1. First lets talk Discus Breeding. Usually the question is how to get them to breed...Thats actually not really difficult. If you give them good clean water and good food, have healthy stock and appropriate tank conditions and they will more often than not breed if you have a mature male and female. Mother Nature has them hard wired like all things living to prioritize that. If your fish aren't breeding one of these factors is missing. Find it by trial and error and testing and you should have pairing activity and spawning and hopefully Fry soon. There is a shortcut to this process, follow the advise of members here that have demonstrated that they can breed discus,. It means they understand what Discus need to breed. Of course hobbyists are always free to figure it out on their own over time, which can be frustrating but is also rewarding because by the time you succeed you will understand these fish .

2. Related to getting them to breed is getting them to stop. Its Ironic that for some the struggle is getting them to breed, yet others have display tanks where they really don't want that happening, Spawning discus can be aggressive and just really can upset the perceived balance in a tank. What some people would love to experience, is actually the dread of keeping Discus in a display tank for others. I'll cut to the chase here..You can not stop them from breeding. Remember they are hardwired to do so like all creatures. Instead of worrying about it, just accept it and watch and learn how these fish act when breeding. Its part of Understanding them and their needs. If anything pat yourself on the back. Without even knowing it in most cases you have given them all they need to feel the drive to breed. It also means they are probably being fed well, and are relatively healthy and not stressed out by their tank conditions. Congratulations! :) Probably not what you want to hear if you suffer from too much spawning in your display tank. My apologies there. Theres not much you really can do. The only strategy that really works is to separate the males and females into their own tanks. I did this personally during the Pandemic because I did not want to deal with Breeding Discus for various reasons. Most of the time a tank of Males will get along just fine. A tank of females will too though it is possible you may get one or two laying eggs , especially in the beginning when you separate them, but even if they do, they seem to lose interest fast and they don't pair up and defend. One additional note, don't position the tanks so they can see each. If you really want a nice calm display tank, buy adult males from a reputable seller from the start.

3. "My Discus are fighting" You should probably read the two above paragraphs if your fish are adults. Pairing up or a female soon to lay eggs is often the big trigger for a tank of otherwise calm discus to start fighting. You may not see a pair at the time, but odds are all that aggression is related to one starting. What about with immature Discus? Its natural behavior! These are cichlids, Feeding times can be a frenzy of tail nipping and chasing. Its a often a sign they are healthy. What about when the fish are young adults and they are picking on the smallest and weakest in the tank. The fear is that fish may get killed by the aggression of the others. Sadly that true, in nature the weakest fish generally don't survive. In our tanks though we don't want to see that. Your best option is to pull the fish out and give it some TLC so its not the weak one. Understand that when you put it back, It will most likely still be picked on or once out of the tank the next fish that is weak will take the place. Why does this happen? Often its because as these fish mature, they will jockey for the dominant positions.They will eat first and eat the most and grow the fastest assuring they are top on the Hierarchy. Avoiding this behavior is a numbers game. Having a small group of discus in a big tank is usually going to lead to this.. When you have a large group, you have less chance of this happening because aggression is spread out. Because Discus are expensive people only buy a few at a time.This is often a recipe for problems down the road. They also try to raise Discus in tanks that have lots of structures. Structures mean territories to be defended. That is just one benefit of bare tanks over planted display tanks for growing Discus. Put a small number of discus in a tank like this this and get used to some drama!

So what do you do? Personally I like to grow out discus in a large group.. I start with the same size and at the same supplier.. bare bottom tank, and feed lots and water change lots and if you do this with a good size group of juvenile Discus they will usually all grow mostly at the same rate..I always start with more than I want, remember its a numbers game. Example 3-4 3" Discus in a 55 gal tank is Ok, but there is a greater chance of aggression. I generally don't grow out Discus to adults in a 55 gal tank.. too small. I use that tank size to put some size on smaller discus and move them. I would start with 12 and raise them up a bit and transfer to a 75 gal tank and weed out weaklings. I'm not saying these are the only way to grow out discus, but a large group of similar size discus raised out in tank usually grows faster and more evenly than a small group of discus, That translates to less chance of overly dominant fish as they grow.


4. Take the following with a grain of salt and sarcasm. They are your Fish to keep as you like but if you go into this hobby with blinders on as what they Need, you will not be long for the Hobby. I understand that you may want to see these Discus in tanks set up in a certain fashion that you find Pleasing to watch.It is after all your hobby and your fish but your discus need to be able to live in that tank to grow to their full size and potential. There are things that they will tolerate and survive but thats not thriving. I am sorry if you do not have the time to do tank maintenance as frequently as you should...that does not mean that over time your discus will not show you that you should have made more time. I am also sorry that you can't keep Discus with all the species of fish you would like to see them with. In some cases your discus will be ok, in others they will not. I am also sorry that they are not swimming peacefully like that picture you saw in book and that they are not schooling back and forth across the tank. Sorry but thats not really their natural behavior when they are feeling safe, They are cichlids and when healthy and happy act like cichlids,. I am sorry that they are not everything you want them to be.. .... Ok I am not really sorry but I think there is probably hope for you if you stop trying to make them into something they aren't and accept them for what they are. Beautiful cichlids that have certain needs just like all creatures and will behave in certain ways under certain conditions. I touched on what those certain needs and Behaviors are, that is where learning and Understanding come in.

I have spent alot of time talking about these things with alot of people. Texts, calls,Forum, face to face, etc. I can usually tell who is going to be in the hobby for the long haul and who will move on from Discus.. Usually the ones that take the time to keep Discus as the Discus need to be kept vs those that just prioritize how they want to keep them over whats best for the fish will determine if Discus are a long term thing or not.

Just a disclaimer, I'm not trying to be purest here, I am a realist and a biologist. I fully admit, I have probably kept discus in almost every way they should not be kept ..killed and stunted more than my share as part of my learning curve. There are definitely alot of ways to keep Discus successfully and there are may ways to successfully stress, stunt, and Kill Discus. We all find what works for us, usually it comes down to what works for the discus though and not us.

al

Al, pretty good for only two cups of coffee. :D What do you suggest for those with wilds especially those keepers new to wilds?
Pat

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Originally Posted by Second Hand Pat

Al, pretty good for only two cups of coffee. :D What do you suggest for those with wilds especially those keepers new to wilds?
Pat

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Pat I have always kept my wilds just like my Domestics. There is really no reason to treat them different. The only real Difference is most wilds are sold as adults so that whole bit about raising Discus and discus numbers sort of goes out the window. I think its always good to start with a bare bottom tank even with wilds and to be very patient... wilds potentially carry just about any thing and thats going to take time to treat if needed. They are also often very stressed from all the handling and it may take them a week or two just to eat. I would really suggest hobbyists quarantine wilds at least 2 months in a bare bottom tank. If you absolutely must have substrate, a very thing layer of sand. .. They really don't need structures, but again a piece or two of driftwood and maybe a few potted plants. Stable water...aged. Ro water mix if your water is hard and high pH, The driftwood tannins are beneficial in the tank.

old pictures,,,

https://live.staticflickr.com/1571/2...9318ebff_h.jpgIMGP9528 by Al Sabetta, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/1716/2...c4d545ea_h.jpgIMGP9540 by Al Sabetta, on Flickr

Here with fake plants and Driftwood.

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al

Al, you mind of I add a few suggestions regarding wilds?
Pat

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Originally Posted by Second Hand Pat

Al, you mind of I add a few suggestions regarding wilds?
Pat

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Not at all Pat!

al

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Originally Posted by brewmaster15

Not at all Pat!

al

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Thank you Al :D

Al is totally right on about wilds. When I joined the forum I had kept a few discus as a young adult for a short time so I considered myself a total newbie to discus when I joined the forum. I decided quickly I wanted to keep wilds and the members who kept wilds embraced me and taught me a lot. So all my experience keeping wilds is documented here on the forum.

So this is simply to add to what Al suggests. When I bring in new wilds my QT size is 75 gallons as I like to give wilds plenty of space. Since they do not know me, I approach the tank from one side which allow the fish to move to the other side of the tank (without spooking hopefully). I also feed from one side of the tank. I like to sit in front of the tank at eye level to observe the fish. I generally have the fish use to me and eating well in about a week. I do daily 50% WCs the first week with an aged RO water/tap mix. My QT does have a super thin layer of sand as the bottom is not painted. If the fish surf the bottom they do not feel secure and I will add a wee bit of sand until they are upright and acting normal. If the fish are still spooky after a week I will add rooibos tea to tint the water and sometimes that helps.

I also quarantine for a long time and do not start any meds until the fish are eating well and come to me. I follow Al's quarantine procedure which is documented here http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...tine-Procedure. Once the fish are past quarantine and moved to their final tank I prefer to not crowd them. I generally keep 12 wilds in a 230. I also maintain them on a tap/RO mix so they show their natural color in time. I think wilds show more complex behaviors then domestics but to be honest, I have kept few domestics.

So speaking of discus doing what they want and not what we want..

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My favorite pair spawns first time ever.. its a small hatch but they do a great job.. 25 fry attach... all is well until they realize that regardless of me being thrilled that this f2 wild cross has bred and are a great pair...they decide its pointless to raise 25 fry and spawn again...everywhere..

Thats pretty much a death sentence for the fry. ..so what do I do? I shrug my shoulders and chalk it up to them knowing best when to breed and raise fry.

Maybe this second spawn will be better.. usually takes a few practice runs at parenting.

Al

I appreciate the frank talk, it's good to hear the wisdom of those so much further ahead on this road of raising Discus. This post will be printed for my educational reference.
One question, when you said, "I would start with 12 and raise them up a bit and transfer to a 75 gal tank and weed out weaklings.", what are the options for these weaklings? What do you do with them?

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Originally Posted by Greg-Florida

I appreciate the frank talk, it's good to hear the wisdom of those so much further ahead on this road of raising Discus. This post will be printed for my educational reference.
One question, when you said, "I would start with 12 and raise them up a bit and transfer to a 75 gal tank and weed out weaklings.", what are the options for these weaklings? What do you do with them?

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Hi Greg,
If a Hobbyist never plans on breedimg the weaklings or selling them they can be kept, but I would move them to a second tank as they can negatively affect the healthier more robust fish. In my tanks.. these weak, runted or stunted fish are culled because all my fish are part of a breeding program and When we breed critters.. we should strive to be genetically responsible. Another words , understand that what we breed should have good genetics

When I say the weak ones can affect the robust growers I mean that they are contributing to waste and water quality issues and they potentially can be reservoirs for illness as they often have a weakened immune system.
Al.

Question — I have a runt in my 75 gal, bare bottom grow out tank. The others don’t particularly bully it, but it generally hides and isn’t growing much. It’s around 1.5 inches, while the others are 2.5-3”

Is it better to leave it with the other 6 discus, or move it into a 75 planted community tank? No plans for breeding, just want the fish to reach whatever potential it has

HI Mark, At this size alot can happen with growth but odds are the runt will not catch up to the group. If you move it to that community tank It may grow a bit .. if you leave it, odds are it will start getting picked on by the group. I would probably leave it for the time being. Moving it could be an option down the road but you definitely arent crammed on the space in the grow out.

Al

Al- it's great to see you more active on the forum. When I was doing my research I found the forum but no Al. When I bough my first batch of FDBW from you and got to speak to you on the phone, I was a bit starstruck. I am a nerd... like you Al, a scientist and a kid doctor. Anyhow, I completely agree with your points about breeding discus. I have a 120 gal community tank of 8 discus, and there are 2 pairs that breed. I'm not trying to have them breed but they do after water changes. The eggs last at most 4-5 days, then they get eaten by the parents or some other fish. But they are aggressive in protecting their eggs and take turns eating, while one stays back to protect the eggs. It's really fascinating, but a little frustrating too.