Sand or Gravel Substrate?

[TrystanV]

Well I just got me a second hand 90 gallon tank, which of course will become the new home for my discus, I want to make it a planted tank, but I'm uncertain if I want to make it a sand or gravel bottom, which would be better?

[Eddie]

Sand is much more softer on the eyes, really sets the tank/fish off IMO. It can be a little tedious to clean but you just have to come up with a method to lightly siphon above the sand, as everything sets right on top, rather than deep down into a substrate.

Eddie

[NanDiscus]

Definately sand. The finer, the better. The latter doesn't equal 'easy to handle', but hey, we're in the discus hobby, or what? :)

Nandi

[Jhhnn]

All my tanks are BB, but like Eddie says, detritus can't hide in very fine sand the way it can in gravel...

[frenchie100]

I love the look of sand, by far!!! Discus love to blow into the sand as well to make food particles fly up in the water.

BUT, you say you want a planted tank, so I am not sure sand alone can hold plants down.

Does anyone out here use straight sand in their planted tanks?

Julie

[Disgirl]

Chad does! Others too and I will when my discus are grown.
Barb :D

[Smiladon]

there are a few options for a pure sand(soil) planted tank. I am no way an expert but I have been doing some research on this for a few days as I myself want to try the same (even though I am a discus newbie too).

You can try ADA aquasoil (which is sand) or if you want to go cheaper, then I believe SMS is something thats available in US (I wish I can get those here!).

Sand/soil is actually good for plants. If you look at a natural environment (mountains for example), you will notice that the trees actually grip the sand together which prevents erosion of the soil due to heavy rain etc.

I dead read about possible air-pockets forming in a sand substrate so you should look into that as well.

[tcyiu]

Actually, it's not so much air pockets as hydrogen sulphide pockets which are toxic.

Without going into all the boring details, as long as you keep your substrate layer thin (~1") and you sift it once in a while, you'll be OK. No bad bacteria will be able to grow and create toxic by-products.

As for plants, I have no clue. I was born with a congenital brown thumb. Despite my best intentions, I kill anubias. 'Nuff said. :-)

Tim

[TrystanV]

I have a 20 gallon which has a sand substrate, and I can vouch for the toxic pockets, basically the are black and in my case they kept spiking my ammonia levels, at first was unaware of it, when I did find them, I got rid of them and the problems stopped.

Someone suggested to me that going to a home renovation center and just getting a big bag of sand, would be a cheap alternative, not sure if this is a good idea has anybody tried this?

[mareshow]

all you have to do to make sure you never get those pockets is to just disturb the sand everywhere, dont let it settle for a long time and you'll be fine :) i've read a few people on here do the home depo way, just rinse well! i was talking to someone in my local area about a certain kind of pool filter sand and it is actually stored in an oil like substance so you have wash it with soap first... too risky for me lol. As for the sand, 1"-1 1/2" of it is enough, the less the better actually because you have less of a chance of those pockets showing up. As for gravel DONT do it, sand is so much prettier and coming from me who had gravel... just trust me sand is the way to go, i'm upgrading to a larger tank right away here as well and i'm going sand, (well because i'm getting rays lol) but also because it just looks THAT much better

[mugzy213]

So let me understand the pockets..

If you use sand as a substrate and you use too much, pockets of gas will form? Why and how does that happen?

The pocket are black?

Thanks for helping me understand:)

[Smiladon]

So let me understand the pockets..

If you use sand as a substrate and you use too much, pockets of gas will form? Why and how does that happen?

The pocket are black?

Thanks for helping me understand:)

I will try to explain with my limited knowledge.

It has less to do with howmuch sand you have.

It occurs when the sand stays stale for a long time. Dont know about the why part yet, but apparently its easy to spot the location because the sand color turns dirty black around the area where the gas has formed.

It should never happen if you just move the sand around once a month.

[TrystanV]

Also, when you place the sand initially in the tank really turn it around alot to make sure that there are no air bubbles left anywhere, this will also help prevent the formation of said toxic pockets

on Another note, here's the type of sand I can get my hands on at the local building center which you think is better?

Play sand
Dry Sand
Beach Sand

[Eddie]

Play

[TrystanV]

Thanks Eddie! resourceful as always:)

[tcyiu]

So let me understand the pockets..

If you use sand as a substrate and you use too much, pockets of gas will form? Why and how does that happen?

The pocket are black?

Thanks for helping me understand:)

Mugzy,
Here's what's happening. When you have a thick substrate (doesn't matter if it's sand, gravel, pebbles), there is very little water circulation at the bottom and no light. As you know, oxygen is dissolved and carried in the water. But when there is no circulation, oxygen won't be available.

For short time, good bacteria will feed off the nitrogen compounds in the water and use up any available oxygen. This leaves stale water.

The warm, dark, stale water is the perfect environment for "anaerobic" bacteria to multiply. For our purposes here, the big fancy word basically means "without oxygen." Generally, these anaerobic bacteria are bad (not all, but most).

Depending on the species (and depending on what nutrients are available), the bad ones produce different toxins including botulism, hydrogen sulphide, etc. These are the toxic gas pockets that we're talking about. These gas pockets have nothing in common with the air pockets trapped in the substrate when you first set up an aquarium.

These pockets take months and possibly years to form (the bad bacteria are very slow). Then one day, you're cleaning the tank and happen to disturb the pockets ... BAM! your fish are dead. [perhaps a little dramatic, but I'm taking a little poetic inspiration from Emeril. :D ]

That is why unless you know what you're doing, deep substrates and/or UGF are not recommended.

The good news is that anaerobic bacteria die in the presence of oxygen and light. This is why you need to agitate the substrate once in a while. By moving and turning the substrate over, you don't give the anaerobic bacteria a chance to grow. Thereby preventing bad stuff from happening.

Hope this was helpful.

Tim

P.S. Lest anyone starts running around saying that all anaerobic bacteria are evil, keep in mind that some expert hobbyists culture certain species of anaerobic bacteria to convert nitrates into pure nitrogen and carbon dioxide. (most of us just perform WCs). Marine reef hobbyists are effecting the same nitrate removal with anaerobic bacteria in live rocks and live sand. That's why to me, the smell of live rocks at the LFS are reminiscent of rotten eggs (H2S).

[mugzy213]

THanks Tim! Yes very helpfull...

i really like the "BAm part":)







Mugzy,
Here's what's happening. When you have a thick substrate (doesn't matter if it's sand, gravel, pebbles), there is very little water circulation at the bottom and no light. As you know, oxygen is dissolved and carried in the water. But when there is no circulation, oxygen won't be available.

For short time, good bacteria will feed off the nitrogen compounds in the water and use up any available oxygen. This leaves stale water.

The warm, dark, stale water is the perfect environment for "anaerobic" bacteria to multiply. For our purposes here, the big fancy word basically means "without oxygen." Generally, these anaerobic bacteria are bad (not all, but most).

Depending on the species (and depending on what nutrients are available), the bad ones produce different toxins including botulism, hydrogen sulphide, etc. These are the toxic gas pockets that we're talking about. These gas pockets have nothing in common with the air pockets trapped in the substrate when you first set up an aquarium.

These pockets take months and possibly years to form (the bad bacteria are very slow). Then one day, you're cleaning the tank and happen to disturb the pockets ... BAM! your fish are dead. [perhaps a little dramatic, but I'm taking a little poetic inspiration from Emeril. :D ]

That is why unless you know what you're doing, deep substrates and/or UGF are not recommended.

The good news is that anaerobic bacteria die in the presence of oxygen and light. This is why you need to agitate the substrate once in a while. By moving and turning the substrate over, you don't give the anaerobic bacteria a chance to grow. Thereby preventing bad stuff from happening.

Hope this was helpful.

Tim

P.S. Lest anyone starts running around saying that all anaerobic bacteria are evil, keep in mind that some expert hobbyists culture certain species of anaerobic bacteria to convert nitrates into pure nitrogen and carbon dioxide. (most of us just perform WCs). Marine reef hobbyists are effecting the same nitrate removal with anaerobic bacteria in live rocks and live sand. That's why to me, the smell of live rocks at the LFS are reminiscent of rotten eggs (H2S).

[TrystanV]

So I went with the Sand and seeing im a cheap *******, went to reno center and got me some play sand....kind of starting to regret it now, after about 4 hours of rinsing the aquarium looks like this any suggestions on how I could get it to clear up:confused:
http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo63/TrystanV/CIMG0229.jpg

Thanks Trystan

[rickztahone]

So I went with the Sand and seeing im a cheap *******, went to reno center and got me some play sand....kind of starting to regret it now, after about 4 hours of rinsing the aquarium looks like this any suggestions on how I could get it to clear up:confused:
http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo63/TrystanV/CIMG0229.jpg

Thanks Trystan

you are going to want some kind of filter in there or eventually it will settle but when you put fish in there they will stir it up and it'll look like that once again.

[TrystanV]

Yea I have a Emperor Filter on there, stuffed with poly wool which hopefully will filter most of it out, cept it doesn't seems to be doing much atm

[tcyiu]

The dust may settle, but will kick up as soon as something or someone disturbs it. From the looks of it, I would stir it up real good, and drain, and repeat several more times.

Then I would throw a diatomaceous earth (DE) filter on it. Poly wool will only do so much. Most of the dust is so fine that only DE filters will be able to get it out.

Tim

[Eddie]

Trystan, you are gonna want to put a fine prefilter sponge on the intake of your Emperor if using sand. Otherwise, your good filter media in the HOB is gonna become sand logged and just make a big mess. :o

Eddie

[Smiladon]

So I went with the Sand and seeing im a cheap *******, went to reno center and got me some play sand....kind of starting to regret it now, after about 4 hours of rinsing the aquarium looks like this any suggestions on how I could get it to clear up:confused:
http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo63/TrystanV/CIMG0229.jpg

Thanks Trystan

Just drain 80% of the water and refill...wait for 2 days and do another 50%. In 2 more days it will be clear :D

The above is what I did for my 125G when I put in aragonite sand in it.
Here is a picture of before:
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/frigy2/FishTank_Feb062009_001.jpg

and this video is a few months after (2 months ago) lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WUlTwEx4-c

PS. I got myself 100lbs of pool filter sand and I will be putting it in my 75G today. I hope 100lbs is enough...or else I might get another 50lb bag and dump it in the tank (after cleaning ofcourse :p)