White Butterflys ?????????????

[rodneyfisher]

Hey these were sold to me as White Butterflys but for some reason they look like a blue strain. I know that there are 2 that look like WB but are full of pepper. let me know what you think

THANKS
Rodney

[rodneyfisher]

You can see one of the ones that I was talking about with the pepper in the bottom left corner of the 3rd pic

[Ryan]

I would say most of them are blue strains. Some of them look like cobalts or turks.

[DISCUS USA]

Did u get them from importer,reseller,breeder or lfs?

[mench]

just my opinion,but if ya paid good money for those fish as white butterflys...well I think ya got taken...And I DON'T want to know who ya got them from..but if you are happy.....

Mench

[rodneyfisher]

Lucky Tropical




I knew they didn't look like WB when I got them in but was not to upset about it since they were only $15 each. They could of accidentialy gave me the wrong ones or something, but that is still not cool.

[DISCUS USA]

Is it possible they are WB s with blueish tint? or are they really really blue ? sorry you didn t get White Butterlies,,i know how hard it is to find decent stock true white butterflies..

[Ryan]

Is it possible they are WB s with blueish tint? or are they really really blue ?

Most of the fish in those pictures have clearly visible bars, and it's also pretty apparent that they're not pigeon-based fish. I only see one pigeon (note the peppering) in the pictures. The others appear to be blue-based discus.

[Lotusan]

yep .. definitely hard to get good stock. better off getting them at a larger size when they resemble what a white butterfly should look like. I was too cheap and bought smaller size from a reputable breeder so even though it was pricey I thought I was pretty safe. So the 2 I got which are now about 4+ inches ... one is orange and the other looks like the one's pictured here ... lot's of peppering. i won't be keeping these but as soon as someone here sells them at a larger size I will be buying ... still love white butterflys.

[DISCUS USA]

Problem with getting WB at bigger sizes when they are fully white is you dont know if they are truly wb s from wb parents ,, seller can put one over you say they are wb s when parents were something else and that so called wb is merely a throw back wont produce wb s if breed..

[t_j]

Ya, um those are not white butterflies. Like Ryan said they look like turks and cobalts to me also. I actually have a couple that look some thing like those right know and there turks and cobalt. Sorry you didn't get what you ordered.:(

[rodneyfisher]

Hey these are surely a blue strain because I can see stress bars on all of them except the 2 that are full of pepper. They surely don't look like the ones that were post in the pic for sale. Take a look for your self, check out the middle of june group order from Lucky Tropical post # 22. Let me know what you think

[t_j]

Can you try to take a picture of them with the flash on and post it?? The picture you took is a little to dark to compare.

[LizStreithorst]

If you want quality White Butterflys talk to Cary at Great Lakes. He is the master of the White Butterfly in the US.

[rodneyfisher]

This is the only one that I could get to upload. How do u change the file size?

[rodneyfisher]

These are the ones that I got from Carrie. Great quality, Great Shape, Great color, just Full of pepper

[t_j]

I use to go through paints to resize but then I found the wonderful world of photobucket.com:D so easy

[rodneyfisher]

To be honest my favorite supplier so far has been Kenny. I am going to wait on him to get me some of Forrest's WB.

[t_j]

I'm sorry but my first reaction was OMG!! Now did they come that peppered or did they pepper after you got them?? And to me they just look like playing old pigeons.

[rodneyfisher]

they came with peppering but as they have gotten older they have peppered more. I have noticed 2 or 3 fading over white but they still have some pepper.

[LizStreithorst]

Gosh, those came from Cary? What a disappointment.

[Kindredspirit]

Does anyone have a picture of what a true WB should look like? As an adult and juvie would be nice:)

[LizStreithorst]

Marie, Remember that white fish with orange striations that you loved so much? It was a white butterfly.

[Kindredspirit]

YES! The one that was yours, Liz, right? I think I do! Do you have that picture still Liz? Or a link?

I can see it in my mind's eye....I loved that a fish. Every inch:)

[Ryan]

White Pigeons should be exactly what the name says. Here's a picture of Cary's:

http://greatlakesdiscus.com/whitediamond.jpg

The body should eventually turn solid or at least mostly solid, with the typical orange markings on the face like any other pigeon. There is also orange spotting/striation left on the body in some instances.

The fish sometimes show hues in the fins.

[Kindredspirit]

So.........a White Pigeon is the same as a White Butterfly?

[brewmaster15]

Rodney,

I think you need to talk with Lucky...Those fish are definetly not white butterflies.....

As for the ones from Cary...Mine don't look like that at all.. mine are relatively clean.... I got mine after you got yours, but I got mine at about 4" ...

I am wondering if the ones you got were from imported for resale at the store? or where they from cary's home bred line?

Wbs are tough to get good quality...They are basically a cross from a pb X non Pb and depending on how refined the cross..there can be alot of pepper...

You might want to talk to Cary as well.

Good luck,
al

[DISCUS USA]

Marie, Remember that white fish with orange striations that you loved so much? It was a white butterfly.

Thought they were Fruity peebles?

And didnt they come from hans?

I just wasn t aware he is being supplies by stendkers REAL WHITE BUTTERFLIES .As far as i know Stendkers does not breed WB S.. never have..

[Ryan]

Thought they were Fruity peebles?

And didnt they come from hans?

I just wasn t aware he is being supplies by stendkers REAL WHITE BUTTERFLIES .As far as i know Stendkers does not breed WB S.. never have..

It's a name game. To me, their silver pigeons and blue pigeons look like WB as adults. Andrew and Angela's blue pigeons may as well be WB.

[Ryan]

So.........a White Pigeon is the same as a White Butterfly?

Yes. Like any other discus, it's a name game. White pigeons go by a lot of names, but White Butterfly seems to be the prominent one.

[DISCUS USA]

It's a name game. To me, their silver pigeons and blue pigeons look like WB as adults. Andrew and Angela's blue pigeons may as well be WB.

I have to disagree with that,, smart sellers know not to call a wb a wb unless it is a true wb from wb parents because it may turn around and bite them in the but if you get to breed them and bunch of pigeons with striations come out ,, if you buy bd s and get pair you would want baby bd s right well if your sold fake wb s but told by seller they are same as wb s and breed them and you dont get wb s ,,you wouldnt be mad ,upset feel ripped off?

[brewmaster15]

Does anyone here know the genetics of a "white butterfly" or "white dragon" or "white Pb " or "German silver" or "german Blue Pb"?:)

what makes a White butterfly a white butterfly?

-al

[Kindredspirit]

Andrew and Angela's blue pigeons may as well be WB.

Well, I have a Blue Pigeon ( I think...that is the name ) of theirs, Ryan.....So it could be a WB?

Look:

Actually, my folder does say Blue Pigeon!

[Ryan]

I have to disagree with that,, smart sellers know not to call a wb a wb unless it is a true wb from wb parents because it may turn around and bite them in the but if you get to breed them and bunch of pigeons with striations come out ,, if you buy bd s and get pair you would want baby bd s right well if your sold fake wb s but told by seller they are same as wb s and breed them and you dont get wb s ,,you wouldnt be mad ,upset feel ripped off?

You should look around the forum at all of the people (including me) with "White Butterflies" and tell me if any of them look the same. The truth is that there are very few "pure" strains that breed true. White Butterflies are not a fixed strain as far as I know. There has been a lot of crossing between white pigeons and other fish like goldens and BD in order to improve on the WB, but I think that also increases the chances of F1s being all over the board. I doubt they breed true.

I also heard from one source that several breeders in Asia are crossing clean pigeons to cobalts and calling them WB. I don't know if this is true or not, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. If you were trying to sell discus and you had a group of 2" juvies that looked like clean white pigeons, you'd probably sell them as such. It doesn't mean they're all going to turn out that way.

I would bet that you could put some of Hans' silver pigeons in with Al's blue pigeons and Cary's white butterflies and most hobbyists wouldn't be able to tell them apart. Just my opinion.

Ryan

[brewmaster15]

what am I?:)

[Ryan]

My favorite new fish, that's what. :laugh:

[DISCUS USA]

I would bet that you could put some of Hans' silver pigeons in with Al's blue pigeons and Cary's white butterflies and most hobbyists wouldn't be able to tell them apart. Just my opinion.

Ryan

Maybe your right couldnt tell difference on the spot in same tank but the truth comes out later when the real wb s and immitations (THROWBACKS) breed.. then u will see if you got your moneys worth.

[Jason]

Cobalt X white PB = blue panda
blue panda X white pb = white butterfly

bd x white pb, then cross back to parent = white diamond(PB base)

fineline blue SS X wb or wd then inbred = white scorpion

marlboro X cobalt, then backcross to cobalt = marlboro light

[Jason]

IMO a Stendker silver pigeon is a butterfly "type" if its lineage is pb and blue.

and AL, Whats up with the tin foil on the back of that tank? sweet fish but it looks like your hiding a gro-op ;)

[April]

ok well id say als wb are the real mccoy..hands down. : ) where are mine like that??

[Ryan]

Cobalt X white PB = blue panda
blue panda X white pb = white butterfly

bd x white pb, then cross back to parent = white diamond(PB base)

fineline blue SS X wb or wd then inbred = white scorpion

Jason,

The question is, if you then take WB x WB do you get 100% WB?

[phidelt85]

marlboro X cobalt, then backcross to cobalt = marlboro light

I thought PM X TB = marlboro light.

If you don't know those strains that is Phillip Morris X Tobacco. :D

I'm really sorry I just couldn't resist. :D :D :D

[Jason]

Jason,

The question is, if you then take WB x WB do you get 100% WB?

nope, if you have a extremely pure line that has been inbred you may hit 75% or more, but they will be really, really peppered.

[Jason]

I thought PM X TB = marlboro light.

If you don't know those strains that is Phillip Morris X Tobacco. :D

I'm really sorry I just couldn't resist. :D :D :D

:) I guess in Canada that would be DuMuarier X Player's

[rodneyfisher]

Hey Al, These did come from his home bred line. I did talk to Cary after I seen the pics of yours, and he said that most of the fry turn out peppered. I called Cary just the other day and he said that he knew exactly what I was wanting but he only had a select few that were super clean like yours. I really don't feel like contacting Lucky because I went through a lot of trouble on the June order just to get what I got, and I really don't see him sending me some more free of charge. I would rather just sell what I have and find something better. I do think that it is a name game this fish came from Gabe @ Wattley's and it is called a Blue Panda. The 2nd pic is what it looked like when I first got him.

Rodney

[brewmaster15]

Hi Rodney,
Glad you talked to Cary, and I am sorry to hear that you were not able to get some clean ones there.:(

On the Lucky Tropical order, I think you should talk to them Buyer feedback is critical in matters like this.


I sent you a pm.

Take care,
al

[rodneyfisher]

Hey I just wanted everybody to know that when I placed my order with Lucky I bought 8 Fuji Reds & 8 WB's. Before I placed the order I asked James if the FR's were Pigeon based and he told me that they were Golden based you can check the June group order thread and see. The transaction was not to smooth I emailed James for weeks trying to get all the info that I needed to send the money through a bank transfer into Kevin (not just fish) bank account. I got a email saying that Kevin tryed to call but did not get through and that the order was going out in 7 hours so he gave me Kevin's phone #. I called him and got the info I needed to send the money and asked if he could ship them to me on Monday because I was going to be out of town the whole weekend. He told me that he had no way of holding the fish that he had to ship them out as soon as he unpacked them. So I told him that I probably needed to cancel my order (this was before I sent the money) because I did not have anybody to pick up the shipment for me. He said that I could not cancel because the fish had already been shiped from Malysia. So I went ahead and sent the money and luckly found someone to pick up the fish for me. When I got back on Monday I found out that the Fuji Red's were Pigeon based and that I didn't even get any WB's. Although the shape,color, and quality was pretty good.

Ps: Al you might want to move this thread to the livestock review thread if you want.

Rodney

[brewmaster15]

Hi Rodney,
This thread has too much info now on white butterflies in general to move it at this point. What I'd like to ask you to do is start a thread in Lucky's section on your experiences and link back to this thread.

I have sent Lucky a link to this thread for their comment. Please keep me posted on how things turn out with this order.

Thanks,
al

[t_j]

what am I?:)


I don't know but can I have one!!!:D:D:D

[Upper Canada]

Dexchung has a good point. A fish called the Mercury ( sp ? ) Mercurie, is a pale barless Bd type ( not much of a looker ) used in crossing to develop these fish. Forrest is developing another version and he has sent me some of these new WB, WS and Mercury.

I also have 2 pairs of his original WB one pair of WB and WS ( young I have raised from last September ) one of which is carrying their first brood. This version has the deep red eye. I will post a few pictures soon.

I think there are many imitations or wanabees and those of yours Al are the real MC Coy.

Bob.

[rodneyfisher]

Hey, I just wanted to let everybody know that I talked to Lawrence today and he asured me that it was a mix up in the packing and that he would make it up to me.

Rodney

[Jason]

Dexchung has a good point. A fish called the Mercury ( sp ? ) Mercurie, is a pale barless Bd type ( not much of a looker ) used in crossing to develop these fish. Forrest is developing another version and he has sent me some of these new WB, WS and Mercury.

I also have 2 pairs of his original WB one pair of WB and WS ( young I have raised from last September ) one of which is carrying their first brood. This version has the deep red eye. I will post a few pictures soon.

I think there are many imitations or wanabees and those of yours Al are the real MC Coy.

Bob.

are these murcury's available Bob? I'd like to try this cross

[rodneyfisher]

Hey i wanted to let everyone know that Cary did say for me to call him back in a couple of weeks and he could sale me some of the few he had that were super clean.

THANKS,
Rodney

[Upper Canada]

Jason,
Forrest could only spare three from his only spawn, he has since lost the female. I have to raise these ones up carefully as I doubt anymore will be forthcomming. He also intended for me to hold on to the stock as a precaution.

Bob

[t_j]

Dexchung has a good point. A fish called the Mercury ( sp ? ) Mercurie, is a pale barless Bd type ( not much of a looker ) used in crossing to develop these fish. Forrest is developing another version and he has sent me some of these new WB, WS and Mercury.

I also have 2 pairs of his original WB one pair of WB and WS ( young I have raised from last September ) one of which is carrying their first brood. This version has the deep red eye. I will post a few pictures soon.

I think there are many imitations or wanabees and those of yours Al are the real MC Coy.

Bob.



Bob,

Those sound like there really nice can't wait to se pics of them.:)


Rodney,

Happy to hear things are getting worked out between you all.

[RickMay1]

Here are some I got from Cary

[Kindredspirit]

Is that a White Butterfly? It looks orange ~ is that pepper or something on your glass?