Why change water??

[Flexy]

I undenrstand that every fish needs clean water, amonia and nitrite free. Under 20ppm of Nitrates is fine. Let's say the condition above are met. Now explain why change water??? Thank You.

[mench]

Well the way I understand it,discus live in rivers so thier water is always changing and nothing is left around to go bad,so if they do good in the rivers why not keep thier tank water nice and fresh....And take it from someone who has gone the other way and NOT done water changes and wondered why they got sick and died,now I am not talking about one or two fish,I mean a few tankfuls were ALL lost because I didn't think water changes wrer needed..I admit this was over 20 yrs ago when I first tried discus but it remains the same today.Having them die told me that discus are too hard to keep in the home tank,yea right,what did I know
So all I can tell ya is go ahead and see for yourself if ya want and don't do any w/c's and come back on this board in a few months and tell all of us how you made out....
Just my own opinion of course....

Mench

Flexy,
There are many contaminants in water other then ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. Fish release pheromones and other things into the water that you can't really test for. Most people just call it bio-load, referring to the buildup of biological material in the water. These things don't really bother most other fish like African cichlids, for example, but discus are particularly sensitive to them. That's not to say you HAVE to change water every single day to be successful, but most people have better results when they do. If I go more then a day without a wc, my fishies color aren't as nice and they aren't as active. Cleaner water also seems to really help them resist disease IMO.

Hope this answeres your question ;D
8)Rob

[Ryan]

I recently hurt my arm and was unable to do water changes for about 6 days. The fish got sluggish and started showing signs of problems. They would turn dark and get pale white patches on their sides. I immediately bought everything I needed for a water pump and started doing big changes (75%+) on the fish with salt and high heat. As of today, I see no signs of the problem. This was about 4 days ago.

This tells me two things: 1) The fish do in fact need water changes, because my angels also went without but were fine. And 2) If you go too long without a change, especially if your tank is densely stocked, you will run into some sort of problem sooner or later.

Ryan

[Jeff]

Well put Ryan. Two of the largest factors for successful discus are multilpe feedings and clean water. Without these you will not be able to achieve the discuses full potiential

[Ralph]

The bottom line: because it works. There is obviously a substance (or a variety of substances) in the water that if not diluted, can stunt young fish and can make adult discus sick. It is just not known what it is that causes this.
Nitrates were often at the top of suspect lists but in planted tanks, nitrates can often run 0 ppm, and WCs are still needed.
Growth Inhibiting Hormone is mentioned but is apparently unaffected by being diluted.
But that still leaves a lot of different waste products in the water and it may be more a question of the sum total as opposed to being one chemical. Unchanged water for the discus is like swimming in a toilet.

Flexy,
That was a good question that you asked.
Now try this at home for a week and then tell us the results:
DO NOT FLUSH YOUR TOLIET FOR 1 WEEK!!
Maybe that will give you a understanding on why Discus need clean water. That tank is their home.

Miles

[Denny]

miles

that was the line i was going to use. i guess i will try this one then.

flexi, so far nobody that i know of has ever published a scientific account of the relationship of health and water changes, so maybe you can help us out by doing the following:

get 2 tanks the same size.
get an equal number of discus from a good source, preferably at least 12.
split into 2 groups keeping the sizes of the fish even between the 2 tanks.
put the fish in the tanks


now do everything the same in both tanks.same heat,food,filtration...

on one change water every day 50% with aged water. include a heater set to the same temp as the tanks and add an airstone.

on the other tank, use the same water as above but change the water as often as you now feel is necessary.

report back to us weekly on how the fish are doing.

denny

[Flexy]

Why are you guys acting up with me. I just asked a polite question. Don't try to be smart, just answer nicely. I need a detail answer, not some toilet garbage stuff. Thank You.

[April]

Flexy....their not acting up..their trying to tell you why....in a comparison way.
discus need clean water. its proven..and as ryan said... 6 days o f no water change and he has sick fish. they cant deal with bioload etc. they wont grow well and they wont be happy fish. theres a saying and a smart guy who used to help newbies on another forum in another galaxy...and every newbie who had a sick discus he used to say...G.D.A.W.c. go do a water change. and it works.!!! if they even look at you sideways....then time for a water change.
if your fish get sick...then its caused by stress. and most likely not enough water changes.
we dont all do them for fun....as we have nothing better to do...we do it cause it works. all we can say.
its from trial and error. and lots of experience.

[Glenn]

fexly we whet over thisin chatyou were there why dintyo lisen

[fcdiscus]

To Dark Discus- John- Remember that guy I think it was Nigel mentioned a month or two ago who hardly changed any water and was supposedly so successfull? Any chance of really getting some feedback from him? Frank

[Jeff]

Flexy,

I don't want to get on your case, but I don't think you understand what clean water is. Just because it isn't thick and green doesn't mean its clean. You and I have had this conservation for close to 6 weeks now. It started out when you said "my friend who is a breeder gave me some discus and said only change 10% of the water once a week". Two days later you said your water params were out of wack and I said change the water. You disagreed. The water quality of your tank has been the source of all of your problems including the latest problem you were asking about in chat the other night.

Why not try what everyone else is doing and change 30-40% of your water every day and get past this instead of asking the same question every week?

I don't think we should jump all over the guy for asking a question if he truly does want to know the answers. Also, Flexy....don't jump on people trying to help you. They were just trying to add a little ammusement to the topic. Most of the people here are great people and mean no harm. Hope u understand.
Brad

[samcatj]

While I can't give you any scientific data or chemistry numbers concerning water changes I can tell you that changing my water consistently does a couple of things:
1. Makes the colors in the fish much better
2. Increases there eating and keeps them in good health
3. Makes them more active
4. Takes away if they are noticable many of the stress bars and some of the peppering
5. Makes my tank sparkle and gives the fish a cleaner place to live
Many times I do not look forward to WC but I realize it is just something you have to do if you want to raise a tank full of healthy, colorful discus.
Please do feel like some of the responses back to you were negative. This board is tremendous and made up of so many nice people who are so willing to help you and all of us with tried and proven information often at the informants own trial and error about raising discus. It is a huge source of great information easily available to you to help you with your hobby. You will make many new good friends on this site. Good luck.


Samcatj

Not much I can add to this....youve gotten some pretty solid answers from some good people. All we can do is speak from experience on this one, as I dont believe there is any hard scientific data on this subject.
It works for us....thats why we do it. If changing only 10% once a week works for you....more power to ya!! Your a lucky guy....

Tony

BTW.....how are the discus with the bacterial infection that you were asking me about in chat about a week ago?? All fixed up?

[Richman]

This is not the first time I have heard this discussion on the whether to change water or not. It is always bewildering to me. The real issue is whether you want to keep your tank clean and provide healthy conditions or not. Would you go a week without vacumning waste? Isn't it reasonable to assume that there is an unhealthy bioload building up daily just because of the enclosed conditions of a tank? Well, if you are going to clean the waste and excess food, why not change water??????? I use my python to vacumn and then just let it hang to the desired depth I want to empty and go away and leave it. Awhile later, I come back and fill. Probably doesn't take 10 minutes for a 100 gallon tank. Is that too much bother for someone who cares about some expensive fish???? Seems to me the the argument is always about why someone SHOULD change water. I just don't get it. WHY WOULDN'T YOU CHANGE WATER?????? When I spend that much money on fish I would rather be safe than sorry.

[Flexy]

Thanks for all of yours info. I don't think there is scientific answer.

The real question is, Flexy, as to whether you now understand the superior results people that change water often get and whether you will now change your water just like the rest of us. We all want you to have the healthiest fish possible and are only trying to help!!!

Brad

[Ralph]

Flexy, your question is valid and needs to be asked. You are right that there is not a definate answer to it, at least at this point. It is based on practical results for now.
The toilet analogy probably isn't the best one but it does illustrate the situation in an aquarium. Fish give off waste products in liquid, solid, and gaseous form and in the somewhat closed environment of an aquarium, the high concentrations of those substances have a negative affect on the fish. Thus the need for WCs.

[Lynn]

Flexy.

there probably isn't any solid scientific evidence for your question.
Here's an analogy:

take 2 shirts. put away a clean shirt in storage for 6 months. take it out after six months and compare it to the other shirt that has been freshly laundered . both are clean ,right? which would you rather wear?
Discus are water specialists, they like it clean.
Just because you cannot measure any polluntants with tests kits does not mean they aren't there.

Lynn

[Tyler]

If i ever did only 10% w/c once a week, i don't think i would ever even see the bottom of my tank. Even when i have missed a day of w/c, it usually takes me a couple days to catch up on all the waste and finally get the tank clean again.
I will also tell you that i am by no means an experienced discus keeper. I have however, met many great discus keepers. So if daily w/cs are what they tell me to do.....well I'll do it! And im not complaining about the results!

Tyler

[h317]

Flexy,

Funny you recommend a very strict wc schedule in your website:
http://members.rogers.com/andrey52/discus.htm

I am no discus keeper. I started to keep discus 1 1/2 months ago and research for information in this forum from time to time.

For example, when my discus had Heximita, I read a lot of posts to find out what to do. Metronidazole seems to be the overwelming choice of medication. Now, do I go around and ask why Metro? Do I really want to know why scientifically it works? Why not other medications? I don't think I want to go that far. My bottom line is to learn from the experts, cure my fish and move on.

Being inquisitive is nice but I do believe your question has already been answered by some fellow hobbyists.

Just my 2 cents.

That's true. Just like in painting: learn from the masters until you are one, then do as you please.

[tango0806]

I have been doing daily water changes for too many years, it works! simple enough. Like some of the other posts stated none of us enjoy doing it but it is part of keeping Discus. Also for me, I like looking at my Discus in clear, clean water that sparkles and makes the fish look like they are floating on air. No matter how well your tanks are filtered it goes hand in hand with daily water changes.

John G

[piranhafreak]

i didnt read all the posts so this may have been said so ill make it short your nitrate may be fine under 20 ppm and the only way nitrates can be removed is by water change so it eventually would get to high and kill them and there are many more reasons

[RichieE]

This is a good place to tell my story. Draw your own conclusions.
I have a Koi pond in my yard. Ive had the same fish for five years or more. They are decent sized and healthy. I only add water. Never change water.
Two years ago I put a pond in for my dad who lives across the street. From day one there was a slow leak in the waterfall. So every night when pop came home from work he would stick the hose in the pond let it fill up and sometimes flood it as he forgot the water was running many times. His koi are 2x-3x larger than mine are. They are Huge!
Now I dont know at what point you change more water than is necessary. But I do know if you want big fat monsterous fish change a lot of water. Rich

[Jeff]

Yes, its a simple concept called faith. I can't tell you why you need to change all that water all I know is it works. Its been proven time and time again yet people still question it. Do as you want its your fish, but don't ask why later after you have been warned.

[EthanCote.com]

Apparently this is one of them old age question that can be debated for years (until scientific facts are presented) but the fact stills remains that regular WC does promote health, growth and happy Discus.

There is a scientist in each and everyone of us, sometimes it is satisfying to just follow something that works (hence the quote, "if it works, why mess with it") but other times, it is more rewarding to understand why things work (hence the quote, "teach a fisherman to fish and he will feed his village"). So to those that seeks for answer as to the "Why" for WC, perhaps this thread on DAAH can shed some light or perhaps cast more shadows, read it and judge for yourself:

http://daah.info/index.php?board=9;action=display;threadid=438


Cheers,

Chi.

[Jason]

like Jack Wattley said

"do you want to keep discus? or watch t.v?"

[ALEXIS]

Flexy one reason untouched in this post is that young discus need minerals and other things in water to grow strong bodies like humans need milk. Depending on the amount of fish in a tank these minerals and other goodies in the water are depleted quickly. I also would factor in filtration and carbon or other resins being used along with plants. The items I justed referred too also use these minerals up and goodies in the water. If your tank is on the acidic side with plants in they will absorb these things even faster. I have sucess with 20 % water changes every other day with my tank being turned over about 25 times a hour by my filters. Also keeping your filters clean are just as important as those water changes. Also friendly tip I have that a lower grow out temp for the solid reds increase there colors. I grow for size and color. If you grow them slow the color seems to be better at adult hood.

[ChloroPhil]

Folks,

Thanks for all the interesting information! I've been getting interested and honestly, a little irritated, with people telling me that I need to be doing much more frequent WC than I do. A little background: I've got some very highly planted tanks with fast growing plants. With the setups I've got I'm adding a good amount of Nitrate, Phosphate, Potassium, and Trace Elements 2-3x/ weekly just to keep the levels high enough in my tank for the plants to grow.

Having kept fish for many years before plants I agree with frequent WC to keep fish healthy. However, with my plants sucking the water clean of Phosphate and Nitrate so fast I have a hard time seeing the need for daily or 3/weekly WC as the planted tanks are _much_ leaner and cleaner than the non-planted aquariums I've kept in the past. I can deal with 2x weekly, but anymore than that starts to seem excessive. I'm not out to grow the biggest or most colorful fish in the world but to maintain the optimum environment in my aquarium for everything living in it.

[joelfish]

I do think this is something that is not completely understood. This is something that I saved from a long time ago. I'm not sure where it's from, but it's one of the better explanations that I've heard...

Not all organic compounds are Ammonia, Nitrite or Nitrates. The diets of our fishy friends contains phosphates, sulfates, organic phosphates, organic sulfates and many different amines and on and on. Aside of the organics, ammonia, nitrite or nitrates, organic phosphates and inorganic salts there are complex hormones and enzymes which we know little about. It's impossible to measure all of this because we barely know what we're looking for.

I also think that with a bb discus tank, the mechanical removal of waste, algae, parasites and bacterial film is a real benefit. Ever notice how much better discus do when you wipe the glass in addition to changing water?

In a planted tank, some, but not all of the dissolved organic compounds are used by the plants, so this bulidup effect is buffered, but not completely eliminated.

If you ever want to do some interesting reading, do a search on 'algal turf scrubbers'.

Joel Fish

Biotypical,
this is for a barebottom tank. You really don't need to change water as often on a planted tank, in my experience. However, your fish probably won't reach the size as most of the people's on here who use barebottom tanks for growing out fish.

[JeffreyRichard]

Thanks for all of yours info. I don't think there is scientific answer.


Actually, there is a scientific answer. Most cichlids are sensitive to metobolic wastes ("The Cichlid Aquarium", Dr. P.V. Loiselle). This means the fish will stress out and finally break down (sick) if it is continually exposed to high levels of metobolic wastes. It seems cichlids in general are somewhat less tolerant of waste then other species (anabantoids for instance).

Metobolic wastes build up in water as living organisms respirate and eat ... the most prevalent waste product is ammonia. This is converted to nitrite and finally nitrate by bacteria in water ecosystems. In order to provide the fish with a low-stress situation, you need to eliminate the wastes completely. You have two choices on how to do this ... have a heavily planted ecosystem which uses the waste for a nutient (natural method, though difficult to recreate completely in most aquarium setups), or remove the waste by replacing the water with "clean" water. Choice two is the easiest method, and is the method that has worked over time.

In nature, you have several factors going for the fish ...
1) The quantity of water in a place like the Amazon basin ... wastes are EXTREMELY dilluted (although fish crammed into isolated pools will suffer problems)
2) Flow of water keeps thing clean
3) the abudance of plants to "eat" the wastes

An aquarium is a "closed system" ... unless waste is removed from the system it will build up and cause problems.

All fish will suffer in a closed system where waste is not removed. Discus are less tolerant than many fish to buildup of wastes. That is why water changes work.

Hope this helps.
Jeff Richard

[ChloroPhil]

Right now I've got my little ones in a bb w/potted plant tank that I'm doing daily WC on...see...I *can* be taught! Just don't try to get me to keep my fish bb permanently....:D

I was just really curious about the possible effects of dense planting and the chemicals which aren't used by plants. So far I've come up with hormones...that's about it.