Canadians and Fish Meds???????????????

[brewmaster15]

I was told today by hobbyist in Canada that they can no longer buy antibiotics for their fish without a script. Does any one have more information and a list of whats prohibited and allowed now? I was told the change was enacted DEC 1.


al

[Altum Nut]

Well you heard right Al...I've yet to read about the particulars. I noticed a BigAl's store this past weekend had no meds on the shelves.
Starting December 1st, 2018 antibiotics for veterinary use will be sold by prescription only. For more info see website of Health Canada.
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/antibiotic-antimicrobial-resistance/animals/actions/responsible-use-antimicrobials.html

...Ralph

[discuspaul]

That's news to me - I can't think of a serious logical reason why this would be prohibited here in Canada (except by way of prescription).
I can't imagine how something like that could be successfully promoted & pushed for passage by a federal government body - a veterinary association is the only medical body I can think of to do that - and would it have the clout ????

However, who knows - I may be quite wrong about this.


Having read Ralph's post just after posting this, I see that I am wrong - wow - what are things coming to in my beautiful country ! The lawmakers seem to be going overboard on a lot of matters these days !

[Altum Nut]

At least I have a few treatment meds available from my good friends online store. https://angelfins.ca/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=11&zenid=e2eb2c0c04d38b26e5f51a0298156550

...Ralph

[brewmaster15]

The person I spoke with said it was going to cost them $100.00 for metro from her vet! I know the logic behind this law but it seems like its going to be really financially lucrative to some parties at the expense of others.

Besides that .. lets consider for a moment that having a vet write a script for fish meds is much different than having one write it for your cat or dog. How many vets do you know of that would do any better than a fish hobbyist diagnosing a fish disease without an examination.How many vets do you think will be qualified as aquatic pathogists to make diagnosis even if the specimen is brought in? It doesn"t sound like its a well thought out law in practice even if its one in principal.In CT its hard to find a vet to look at my reptiles... if I had to one look at fish, itd be well near impossible.

[fljones3]

That is crazy. Next thing, they will want to license all fish with tags. Lol!
I know I signed a sheet with JEHMCO when I got metro from them, saying I would not resell or personal consumption.

[brewmaster15]

I have to laugh... from that website

Who we are working with
Over the last several years we have been engaging stakeholders about these changes. We will continue to support these actions with ongoing engagement and communication.

We will continue working with:

The Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Provincial and territorial partners (Ministries of Agriculture and veterinary licensing bodies)
Canadian Veterinary Medical Association (representing veterinarians)
Animal Nutrition Association of Canada (representing animal health nutritionists as well as feed mills)
Canadian Animal Health Institute (representing drug manufacturers)
National Producer Associations:
Canadian Cattlemen’s Association
Canadian Pork Council
Chicken Farmers of Canada
Dairy Farmers of Canada
Equestrian Canada

I Guess the Canadian People aren't considered stake holders? If I was a Canadian citizen I would be furious and let my political leaders hear it.

[megatrev62]

I believe you can still get ich meds, but I'm not totally sure on that. And knock on wood, I have never had any trouble with regards to disease other than the odd bout of ich over the last 26 years. Having said that, I won't be heading to a vet for a script for anything fish related.

[Altum Nut]

I wonder if Cannabis now that it's legal here will treat some symptoms in our fish and can bypass the vet all together...Lol

...Ralph

[megatrev62]

I wonder if Cannabis now that it's legal here will treat some symptoms in our fish and can bypass the vet all together...Lol

...Ralph
Yes cannabis the wonder drug..lol

[brewmaster15]

For what its worth.. ebay canada appears to have not gotten the memo yet.

[discuspaul]

I have to laugh... from that website


I Guess the Canadian People aren't considered stake holders? If I was a Canadian citizen I would be furious and let my political leaders hear it.

That's precisely how I feel about matters like this.
But anytime I've written or emailed to my MLA in Ottawa (Member of Legislative Assembly) I've gotten nowhere - just a very limpid, put off response from some assistant - or if I've contributed to a newspaper OPED a number of times - it gets no action whatever from any of our elected political representatives - so the taxpayer never gets a hearing of any consequence or positive result - that's not much different from the way it is in many other countries, is it ?

Perhaps it's no different in the U.S. of A., but several times in recent months, I've said to my super wife Linda:

"Maybe we should consider moving to Waco, Texas, and have Joe & Chip of "Fixer Upper", redo a $150,000. property for us, to have a home rebuilt into a 'palace' for a total reno cost of not more than $100,000., and which would cost at least 6 X more to acquire up here in Vancouver - and then we probably wouldn't give a damn what the State of Texas & Washington, D.C. politicians threw at us !" LOL

[Megalodon]

Are any of these actually useful for aquarium fish?


Tiamulin
Neomycin
Bacitracin
Tilmicosin
Apramycin
Penicillin G
Lincomycin
Erythromycin
Virginiamycin
Spectinomycin
Sulphonamides
Tylosin/Tylvalosin
Streptomycin/Dihydrostreptomycin
Tetracycline/Chlortetracycline/Oxytetracycline

[Altum Nut]

With the help from Google...yes some are for our aquatic pets and others for farm animals.

...Ralph

[Megalodon]

With the help from Google...yes some are for our aquatic pets and others for farm animals.

Which ones are used for fish and actually helpful?

[brewmaster15]

Are any of these actually useful for aquarium fish?


Tiamulin
Neomycin
Bacitracin
Tilmicosin
Apramycin
Penicillin G
Lincomycin
Erythromycin
Virginiamycin
Spectinomycin
Sulphonamides
Tylosin/Tylvalosin
Streptomycin/Dihydrostreptomycin
Tetracycline/Chlortetracycline/Oxytetracycline


neomycin, erythromycin and tetracyclines

But by the link that Ralph posted they break the medications into 4 groups depending on their usefulness to humans.. All groups appear to be prohibited.


1. Category I: Very High Importance
These antimicrobials are considered of very high importance in human medicine as they meet the criteria of being essential for the treatment of serious bacterial infections and limited or no availability of alternative antimicrobials for effective treatment in case of emergence of resistance to these agents. Examples include:

1.1 Carbapenems
1.2 Cephalosporins – the third and fourth generations
1.3 Fluoroquinolones
1.4 Glycopeptides
1.5 Glycylcyclines
1.6 Ketolides
1.7 Lipopeptides
1.8 Monobactams
1.9 Nitroimidazoles (metronidazole)
1.10 Oxazolidinones
1.11 Penicillin-β-lactamase inhibitor combinations
1.12 Polymyxins (colistin)
1.13 Therapeutic agents for tuberculosis (e.g., ethambutol, isoniazid, pyrazinamide and rifampin)
2. Category II: High Importance
Antimicrobials in this category consist of those that can be used to treat a variety of infections including serious infections and for which alternatives are generally available. Bacteria resistant to drugs of this category are generally susceptible to Category I drugs which could be used as the alternatives. Examples include:

2.1 Aminoglycosides (except topical agents)
2.2 Cephalosporins – the first and second generations (including cephamycins)
2.3 Fusidic acid
2.4 Lincosamides
2.5 Macrolides
2.6 Penicillins
2.7 Quinolones (except fluoroquinolones)
2.8 Streptogramins
2.9 Trimethoprim/sulfamethoxazole
3. Category III: Medium Importance
Antimicrobials in this category are used for treatment of bacterial infections for which alternatives are generally available. Infections caused by bacteria resistant to these drugs can, in general, be treated by Category II or I antimicrobials. Examples include:

3.1 Aminocyclitols
3.2 Aminoglycosides (topical agents)
3.3 Bacitracins
3.4 Fosfomycin
3.5 Nitrofurans
3.6 Phenicols
3.7 Sulphonamides
3.8 Tetracyclines
3.9 Trimethoprim
4. Category IV: Low Importance
Antimicrobials in this category are currently not used in human medicine. Examples include:

4.1 Flavophospholipols
4.2 Ionophores


This means even furan 2 requires a script. Thats just ridiculous as its rarely if ever used in humans.

What would have been a sensible thing would be to have scripts for class one and maybe class 2 and leave class 3/4 as it is...

As someone looking from the outside in I find it very troubling. Theres a similar trend in Europe and elsewhere. Those of us in the USA should see the writing on the wall. There is a definite and real threat from antibiotic resistant bacteria but this doesn't solve that it. It just takes away the choice from hobbyists and lines special interest groups pockets. If there was a network of aquatic pathogists and labs that hobbyist could work with I would say its a good idea... but there isnt. Which means antibiotics will be prescribed and used the same... it will just cost us more in terms of treatment
Many will probably just euthanize their fish as it will be cheaper or they will horde and use class 1 and 2 antibiotics. Its a very poorly thought out plan in my eyes.

The greatest source of frustration for me when I see things like this is it puts the blame in the wrong place. Antibiotic resistence falls squarely on the shoulders of big businesses like agriculture, livestock,aquaculture and our medical system. Thats where the abuse is wholesale and rampant and where bacterias are the most likely to be exposed to various medications and then circulated abroad. The average hobbyist that treats his fish with furan 2, tetracycline or metronidazole etc... isn't a huge contributor to the problem... and yet they will be the most effected by these kinds of laws. Big Business will just have their own house vet or contracted vet write the script.. nothing changes there.

If I sound a bit cynnical here.. I am. We should all be. Laws like these are enacted to make it seem like a problem is being addressed...but its really not.

Qualifer, these are my opinions and thoughts I have no proof that big business contributes more to the problem.

https://foodprint.org/issues/antibiotics-in-our-food-system/



Antibiotics in Our Food System
The rise of dangerous antibiotic-resistant bacteria have become a critical public health problem, fueled in part by their use in industrial animal agriculture.

SHARE:
Since the 1940s, antibiotics have played a critical role in protecting public health, and have saved millions of lives. However, the non-therapeutic use of antibiotics by the modern food animal industry is now responsible for the emergence of drug-resistant bacteria that pose a grave threat to public health.

A push in the communities of public health, science and consumer advocacy is happening to end the inappropriate use in livestock production of drugs that are medically important for people. 1 Yet so far, most reforms have been the result of voluntary changes by the industry.

Antibiotics and Antibiotic-Resistance
Bacteria are everywhere and are vital to the proper functioning of our bodies. In fact, humans have roughly an equal number of bacteria to human cells. 2 However, while most bacteria are beneficial to and synergistic with human health, some cause serious illnesses and death.

Since their discovery in the early twentieth century, antibiotics, or antimicrobials, have been used to cure a wide range of bacteria-caused diseases including pneumonia, meningitis, syphilis, food poisoning, ear and skin infections and many others. Drugs, such as penicillin, tetracycline, amoxicillin and others, kill or inhibit the growth of bacteria without causing significant harm to people.

Misuse of antibiotics, however, leads to evolution of antibiotic-resistant bacteria, which render these powerful, life-saving drugs ineffectual and therefore obsolete. When bacteria are continually exposed to low doses of an antibiotic, those resistant to the drug survive and reproduce while the rest die off, resulting in a new bacteria population that resists the antibiotic. 3

Prescription of antibiotics to treat conditions caused by viruses like the cold or flu (which cannot be treated this way) and patients’ failure to complete their antibiotic regimen are two common examples of antibiotic misuse 4, which enable the appearance of new, resistant strains. 5 In hospitals, poor infection controls, lax hygiene and sanitary practices and the lack of rapid laboratory tests can all contribute to the spread of antimicrobial resistance. 6

Antibiotics and the Animal Industry
Nowhere are antibiotics used more widely and subject to less oversight than in the livestock industry. According to the FDA, more than 20 million pounds of medically important antibiotic drugs were sold for use in food producing farm animals in 2014 — that’s up to 80 percent of all antibiotics sold. 7 The notion of administering antibiotics to people on a daily basis would never be considered, let alone condoned.

Antibiotics have been used in livestock feed since the 1940s, when studies 8 showed that the drugs caused animals to grow faster and put on weight more efficiently, increasing meat producers’ profits. Up until the recent past, when the FDA banned the practice, non-therapeutic antibiotics — those used for purposes other than treating disease — were routinely given to livestock, poultry and fish on industrial farms to promote faster growth. 9 The medication has the added benefit to producers of preventing disease that would otherwise be caused by the crowded, unsanitary conditions in which the animals are raised; the FDA’s ban of antibiotic use in animals for growth promotion means very little when antibiotics are still allowed for disease prevention, a practice common in confined animal feeding operations (CAFOs), or factory farms. According to the FDA, from 2009 through 2014, domestic sales and distribution of antibiotics approved for use in food producing animals increased by 22 percent. 10 Further, 97 percent of these drugs were purchased over the counter, without any veterinary involvement or oversight, and administered to animals primarily through feed or water, which makes precise dosing impossible. 11 While the 2013 FDA rule (that went into effect in 2017) includes provisions for veterinary oversight of antibiotic administration, many – including several US Senators – worry the FDA “may lack the authority to ensure veterinarians adhere to the criteria

Then again maybe theres plenty of proof out there

[gunnerschh2]

I agree with you Al. A lot of people that pass laws have no idea about what there doing but it gets attention & they need that Attention, RIGHT OR WRONG.

[CANAMONSTER]

The employee at big Al's told me they are doing this because of environmental reasons 😏

[CANAMONSTER]

Prazipro is still available on Amazon though.....

[xKevinx]

Wow! Very interesting read. Sad for sure

[KParsons]

The improper disposal of medications has resulted in our native waters being contaminated with steroids, hormones, and antibiotics. There have been several articles in the newspaper that have disclosed this and exactly what they have found. That's why drug stores have disposal services now. That is no guarantee that people are not flushing or throwing out meds. Lazy and irresponsible are rarely cured by such measures.