Stunting and Strains - eye ratio

[Hart24601]

Hey all, I have gone over lots of threads here and many about stunting. I have also seen great number of fish on the site be called stunted, however while some are very obvious, there are many others that I still struggle to tell they are stunted despite other members being quite sure they are. Does strain play a very large factor?

Here is an example - this is just a post I saw recently, not talking bad or anything else. But in this video there is an expensive "maybe" pair but the eye ratio didn't seem perfect to me and my untrained eye. Now this is a sponsor and considered one of the best discus sources out there, but my initial impression was that if a new member posted these they would hear how nice the color was, but the fish was slightly stunted. No? Like I said I am just wanting info for my own purpose, no other commentary!

I also have the guide to eye ratio photo, the ones in the video are not that extreme, but if 4.5 is stunted and these have a ratio of 5 or 5.5 at best compared to 7.5 that is a HUGE difference! I just did this in PP fast so it's not perfect, but I hope someone can shed a bit more light on it.

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[Clawhammer]

Getting a good feel for proper shape is also helpful. The fish at the bottom may only have 5.5 eye score, but it is nicely rounded and thick. The one in your first pic with the 4 eye score has a prominent "beak", common among stunted discus. I bet if the pic was zoomed out it would have the tell tale football shape.

Pigeon bloods (none pictured here) tend to have smaller eyes than other discus. Also good to note, juvi discus can have different growth rates and growth spurts at different times, so the eye test is less relevant to juvi discus.

I also didn't see the stunted traits when I was new, but after a year of staring at discus, it is immediately apparent.

[Hart24601]

Appreciate the feedback!

[rickztahone]

The bottom discus is not stunted. It is nice and thick as well as Eric pointed out. Labeling a discus as stunted is kind of subjective, at least IMHO. I have a discus that would be considered stunted according to the rule above. However, it is 6" long and its fault is in its shape more than anything. Sometimes, some discus are just smaller, this is definitely the case with females as well.

[Hart24601]

Thanks for chiming in! So even with eye ratio of 5 if the shape is good and fish is thick it's not stunted at all huh? Everyone agree with that? You think if I had obscured the source of that bottom photo no one would have said it's stunted?

If a discus is 6" then it's not stunted? Total length or to base of tail?

This seems to be one of the more confusing reoccurring topics here (for me), so I appreciate it!

[rickztahone]

Thanks for chiming in! So even with eye ratio of 5 if the shape is good and fish is thick it's not stunted at all huh? Everyone agree with that? You think if I had obscured the source of that bottom photo no one would have said it's stunted?

If a discus is 6" then it's not stunted? Total length or to base of tail?

This seems to be one of the more confusing reoccurring topics here (for me), so I appreciate it!

I'll post a pic of the discus I am talking about later. Honestly, I have never cared who is selling what discus, or who owns which discus, if it is stunted, I will say so, if it isn't (IMHO), then I will also say so.

[Lido]

I struggle with ID on "stunting as well. I believe some of my fish are stunted. When I am looking for fish eye size and shape are qualities I look for but occasionally it is difficult to tell. I have had a perfect shape discus that didn't grow more than 6 inches.

[Hart24601]

I struggle with ID on "stunting as well. I believe some of my fish are stunted. When I am looking for fish eye size and shape are qualities I look for but occasionally it is difficult to tell. I have had a perfect shape discus that didn't grow more than 6 inches.

Happy to hear I am not the only one who gets confused!

[CammieTime]

How old the fish are at time of eye measurement matters a lot too. Young fish are not perfect round shaped, they grow into that, so they may "fail" the eye measurement test and be deemed stunted when in fact they are perfectly normal. A young fish may look "stunted" when it is actually not. Now, if the same fish is say 9 months old and fails the eye measurement test, then it is definitely stunted.

[Willie]

The eye-to-head ratio is a good indication of care, but the optimal ratio differs by genetic background. The more traditional strains, e.g. turquoise, cobalts, etc. are a lower ratio, so 5:1 or 6:1 is an excellent specimen. Newer strains, which originate from Pigeon Blood, have higher ratios, so 7:1 - 8:1 is not unusual. Wild caught specimen may only be 4:1 to 5:1. Crosses with wild backgrounds will also have lower ratios.

As Cammie said, there are many other considerations. Size, shape, finnage are all considerations.

Willie