Update on the progress of my Wilds

[JBurgo]

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I thought it's probably time for an update on the progress of my Wilds. The first row in the photograph is the original fish from this thread: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?126400-New-Wild-Discus-a-few-questions
The smallest one didn't make it (not included in photo, you can see it in the original thread), Whirling Disease. I actually got it into really healthy shape, it put on heaps of weight, but it just got erratic very quickly, almost before I could tell what it had it was dead.

To continue the story, probably not a wise move, but nevertheless I did it.. probably emboldened by my success, I went back and bought the remaining fish to try and save them too. So the second row in the photograph are the new fish, not including a small one I lost this morning due to Wasting (a photo of that fish is in another thread http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?127448-Wasting-Disease ). You can see that they are not as good as the first group that I've had for longer. And looking at them you might think they are in poor shape, but they were `much` worse when they came, so bad in fact that I was even too embarrassed to take a photo of them.

All of them are eating vigorously and improving (except for the one I lost this morning), none of the others have shown signs of hiding, darkening or whirling /erratic behaviour in the slightest. All the new ones had terrible fin damage, and all have recovered considerably, but one has relapsed a bit, although it's still better than when it came, I may have to medicate to help it through if the fins deteriorate further, it could be fungal because it appears to be deforming the growth of the fins and making them brittle.

I took in 13 and I now have 11, hoping to bring the rest to full health.

I'm currently treating with API General Cure, mostly for the one I lost this morning, but some of the others aren't putting on weight as fast as I think they could be so I'll persist until the course is finished as a precaution.

I was recently tempted to go and get another little one that I found out about from another source, but after Phil's recent and timely posts, the last thing I need to do is introduce more problems to my tank right now, so I (this time wisely) resisted (and thanks Phil).

My tank is so much healthier with the new sand, and I've finally been able to achieve 10ppm Nitrates (before WC) which I previously thought was unachievable.

Thanks,
Jason

[Phillydubs]

Jason,

It sounds like you have taken on a lot and battled through a lot. I commend you for your work and effort here. The fact that you even tried says a lot about you. Going back for the sick ones to help isn't something most would do. So I have to ask, I am guessing you added the new ones right to the tank? No qt? Something w my track history I prob shouldn;t even be asking but again, I try to help others the "right way" not "my way." I'm sure you know and as you stated learned from my issues not to do that.

Did the established somewhat healthy fish become infected in anyway with the add of the new? Do you have a qt tank or another tank where maybe the worst of the group can go?

I am really happy to read that you were able to prevent further stress and issues after reading about my dumb move! I am happy that stopped you from adding, which I think is a very wise move.

Not sure if you can get Seachem Paraguard in your area of the world but it worked quite well with my wilds and it may help yours.

[JBurgo]

Yeah Phil, I definitely had intentions of a quarantine tank, I was preparing to sell my Cichlids and use their tank, 6 unhealthy Discus need a good size QT tank, and with a few problems on both ends time beat me. On the other end, for example, their tank had been sold and the fish would have gone to a shop, or passed through a number of hands who didn't have time to deal with them, their days were numbered, they couldn't have handled that in their condition.

These fish were originally all together in the first place though, so whatever problems they might have, I figured my fish had a good chance of immunity to it, and now my fish were stronger as well. Nothing had changed to their circumstances except time, so I think the chances of introducing something new was minimised (although I knew it could still happen so I was very nervous about it too). The ones I had weren't particularly diseased, after a worming and given good conditions they were progressing well. The new ones, even though emaciated, deteriorated fins, and dark, were holding on longer than I think they would have if they were diseased. I don't know if taking a shot was worth it, it wouldn't have been if I lost my original fish, but it was a calculated risk that didn't involve any other tanks. There was a thought in the end that even if I used the Cichlid tank I might bring something over from that? Either way, I was too embarrassed to post about it, so I knew I shouldn't have done it, right?

I lost the small fish from my original lot shortly after, I don't think it had anything to do with introducing the new fish. I had posted a thread here already about it's uncontrolled dashing 2 lengths of the tank on occasion. I thought that because it didn't involve circles I might be right, perhaps it was just `really spooked` but in hindsight it was the onset of Whirling Disease, and I lost the fish on the second day of it's full manifestation at which time there was nothing I could do except remove it quickly. I'm still touch and go as to whether I should treat the whole tank for that as a precaution because it's too late when it shows up.

The established healthy fish haven't had any signs of problems from the new fish so far, but I know that can change and that I probably got lucky. I don't want to isolate them at the moment, I have a water change tub I could put them in with a heater, air stone and some media from my sump if worse came to worse, but I don't want to stress or depress them. In my experience Discus are particularly prone to, just plain `getting depressed`. And at the moment they're all happy. I also want to treat the whole tank with anything I do, older fish, newer fish, and the general physical `tank`.

I'm pretty sure I can get the Paraguard over the net, but ATM I'll go with completing the API General Cure and watch to see how they go, I really would like some help interpreting the instructions in my emergency room thread if anyone knows about dosage, I don't want to accidentally overdose. The after that, I'm concerned for the fins of that one fish (which is possibly a fungus) and possibly treating for Whirling Disease as a precaution.

Getting that one other fish was a temptation, but it was from a totally new source. Your posts were a great warning. In my first experiences with Discus, I was trying to get a tank of Blue Turks and I went back to my LFS every time he got an order in, and got in early as I could to get a good selection (because the good ones go fast), and picked a few to suit my taste from the batches as they came in to build my stock. I had around seven fish when one batch came in and absolutely smashed my tank, every fish went dark, they all lost their slime coat and huddled, later losing buoyancy, I went back to the shop to ask for help and all his Discus had been smashed too, you get the point. I lost all but one of those Discus that time by introducing 2 fish that looked healthy. I know exactly what can happen, and your post was a timely reminder.

[JBurgo]

I wanted to add something about water change schedules and tank maintenance for Wild Discus.

While researching Whirling Disease as the little one was dying I came across this article from 2014 on Simply:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/archive/index.php/t-115050.html

The article begins by suggesting that some cases of Whirling Disease could be misdiagnosed poisoning due to overfeeding, particularly with vigorous eaters like Wilds.
Later the discussion turns to suggesting that large frequent water changes could contribute to this condition in Wilds and the general consensus was to do less than with Domestics.

The irony is that, when the small fish that I lost to this started to exhibit dashing, I `increased water changes` both in size and frequency, which could very well have contributed to its demise.
And, I had been feeding very liberally as well, because the fish that I got were absolutely emaciated and I was trying to get weight on to them before they wasted.

What I got out of this:
Is that I be careful not to overfeed, even though I'm trying to get weight onto some of these fish, it's just normal feeding.
Also:
I want to keep the water as stable and as clean as possible.
I vacuum daily (tank to sump) through a separate filter sock that I remove.
I limit my water changes to 50% every 2 days at the most (and I prefer 3 days), because this makes sure the water in my changing tubs has fully aged (I refill the tubs immediately after every change). I aerate and temp match on the last day.
I change the main 100 micron filter sock on every WC.
On water changes I remove all wood with most plants and fully deep vac the sand.
I also use about 6X the required bio media for my tank, with a mix of MarinePure balls and a block + Bioballs in a W/Dry + I'm beginning to grow Pothos.
Temperature 30*C

I just wanted to add that, because perhaps it might help someone doing what I've done, particularly with Wilds, or at least give an opinion.
Perhaps if a discussion comes out of it and I'm wrong or the information is outdated or incorrect then I can learn something.

My sump (just for interest sake), I use the Herbie Method, hence the syphon downpipe:
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[Phillydubs]

Great follow up and a lot of info !

Trust me, I'm the last guy you need to explain temptations and bad decision making in crunch time. Lol. I get itand have been there for sure. It's hard when you start to think they will just die when you feel like you can help.

One thing I will say is be careful not to over medicate or medicate a guess. Especially fish in this state. Try and really cover all the issues and then dose. I think you made a pretty good choice with what you chose and follow the full dose and course.

Thanks for posting that older article. I don't think I ever read that one but will again.

You have to know your fish your water how they react to it. I'm a pretty firm believer of the less is more w wilds. Only when starting the tank and dosing the Paraguard did I do daily water changes. I usually do every other if I need to do the third day I don't mind but prefer every other. I do larger than you of about 75 but still I find truth there

[JBurgo]

Thanks Phil, I'll keep posting updates, whether I fail, make mistakes, or succeed.

[William1]

I lost one guy to whirling disease. I had read so many posts where people feed five or more times a day I upped my food and starting changing water twice a day instead of once thinking I would get a growth spurt. Then I read that article where they come to the conclusion that over feeding and too many water changes was the cause of whirling. Went back to my original routine of one water change and two feedings a day and have had no problems since. I don't think a lot if wild discus keepers have seen that article but I'm a believer.
I would suggest you stop getting more fish and be happy with what you have. Sounds like you have enough to do as it is. Good luck and have fun!

[JBurgo]

Twice a day, wow, that's a lot of work too.

I agree William, I'm not looking for new fish. The ones I got I knew about since the beginning. I felt bad when I chose my original fish, because I was pretty much choosing who would live and die. The other one I found out about was a temptation, but in the end I knew better. A single fish wouldn't be worth the risk, and a group of fish would overstock the tank.

On the subject of stability, I've been tempted to set up a continuous drip system for this very reason, but I'm unsure whether the water turnover from that would be enough with Wild Discus.