Daily water changes actually making things worse?

[Aquaman6410]

I've had my discus for about 4 weeks now. They were ordered from Hans at 3in size. Ive been having problems with one of them staying hidden, not eating much, smaller than others. Keep thinking it could be stress. Now one of my turqs are also acting like this. I have 9 discus total and the other 7 are growing more and eat a ton. I fear there is something stressing the fish and I can't figure it out. Higher temps do seem to help. I have the tank around 85 to 86f. Ive done daily water changes of at least 60 to 80% since I've had them with heated, aerated, aged tap for 24 hrs. Every time I do a water change, they act weird and stressed. The larger I do, the worse they may seem. They are even okay as I siphon, its once the tank has new water which makes me curious. The next morning, they are all normal again, beghing for food, except the two smaller stressed ones. I noticed after the water change, they seem to be less energetic, rapidly flick their ventral fins, and even flash against objects and randomly dart. They seem irritated and seem better off if I never changed the water. My tank is around ph of 7.10 to 7.20 on average according to apex controller. Temp around 85, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, barely any nitrates. After water change, the temp may be around 85 to 86 at most so nothing bad and ph meter shows 7.45 at highest. Ph is usually back to 7.2 by next day. Kh is around 1 and I keep a cup of crushed coral in my AC110 to help add some kh because my ph will start to crash over a couple days of heavy waste. Everything tends to look stable enough to me. The only thing I can think of is chloramines. My tap has 3.5 ppm of chloramine according to tests and city water report. Tap will show about 1ppm of ammonia if tested out of tap or aged, guessing from chloramines. I dose at least 1 to 1.5x the needed amount of prime since the chloramines are higher than most cities. Is this still irritating the fish perhaps even with the use of prime. Should I back down on water changes? I dont mind large dailys but they seem to make things worse. I don't want to use RO because that will just get expensive. Its a 75g for grow out now but at least a 125g once the get a bit bigger. Tank is bare bottom with an AC110 and two large sponge filters. I'm trying my best to do everything I've learned through the forum but something with my water just seems horrible and I'm feeling defeated. Please help me figure this out.

[brewmaster15]

I'm guessing you may have dissolved gases in your water. Whats your pH right out of the tap? Then aged 24 hours in a bucket with an airstone? when you do a water change are there alot of bubbles in the water?

You also may have other additives in the water supply besides chloramines or chlorine. First step is to contact your municipal water company/supplier and get a report as to whats in your water exactly

Could you post some tank pics? If you give discus cover the weaker ones will hide.
al

[Aquaman6410]

Just checked tap, looks like 7.8 with ph test kit. My ph controller shows 7.92. Aerated water in my barrel shows 7.6 according to apex probe. Ph test kit looks to be slightly less than 7.6. Im aerating a small amount of water, like a cup or two, just to get a ph reading on a heavily aerated sample of water. Tank curently has a ph of 7.15. Kh around 1. Two airstones are in each of my brute cans, have two 44 gallon cans. Also each can has a koralia 420gph powerhead pointing at surface making a ripple. Air pump is the largest petco model but doesnt pump strong at the full depth of the can. Maybe I need a stronger pump?

I use a mag drive 9.5 to pump water into tank. I dont notice any bubbles but I can try to look really close next time.

Here is a link to my city's latest water report. Chloramines actually went down to a high of 2.9 ppm but tap shows 1ppm of ammonia. Thanks for the help Al. I love my discus but I cant seem to get them to not stress currently.

Water report: http://www.cityofpsl.com/utility/pdf/2015-water-quality-report.pdf

See my journal for the latest pictures and video of the tank. I try to keep it as simple as possible.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?125516-Stendker-Grow-Out-First-Time-Discus-Keeper

[atlantadiscus]

Have you gone to the official Stendker breeder website to look for information on the care of Stendker Discus? Here is the link http://diskuszucht-stendker.de/en/Wissenswertes/

[DJW]

The only thing I notice is the water is somewhat salty (sodium 90 ppm). But that shouldn't effect the fish only at water changes the way dissolved gas would. You are ageing/aerating for 24 hours and that should be enough to get the gases out... so I don't know.

If you don't like the idea of having chloramine, there are types of carbon cartridge that are designed to remove it. I think they are low-flow filters that you would put on the incoming water line to the ageing barrel. A float valve would be necessary on the barrel.

http://www.wqpmag.com/catalytic-carbon-chloramine-removal

http://www.marinedepot.com/AquaFX_Chloramine_Blaster_Replacement_Carbon_Filte r_Cartridge_RO_DI_Carbon_Block_Replacement_Filters-AquaFX-5V92459-FIRORPCB-vi.html

[Aquaman6410]

I just don't like the chloramine because I was thinking maybe that what is messing with the discus but if that's not it, why bother spending more when I can just use prime/safe. Any other ideas of what it could be. Do you think it is dissolved gasses? Do I need a stronger air pump like a danner ap20? Those aren't too expensive but I know they are very powerful. I wish I knew what was wrong and what was making them act so weird. The fin flicking, darting, and flashing on things makes me nervous but I know they are fine since they are in a brand new, very well fishless cycled tank with them all coming in at the same time from Hans. Something is stressing them and I'm pulling my hair out trying to figure out what I need to do.

[NEangler]

Even small amount of chloramines may be affecting them. My town water went over to chloramines for a few months this post spring. My symptoms were a bit different where my discus were laying on their sides and breathing heavy, so not sure if chloramines are the issue with you. I had to age the water (separate tank) for only a day with prime and everything was fine there after. Maybe worth a try if you have a separate tank to age the water. Buy a pump to transfer into main tank

[Aquaman6410]

I'm already aging the water 24hrs but I don't add prime in the aging barrels to prevent the aging water from trying to cycle and the chloramine helps keep water cleaner from parasites and pathogens. Prime is added as I fill and I'm using at least a full dose which is more than enough for 2.9 ppm of chloramine if my water is coming out on the higher side of my water report.

[Larry Bugg]

I'm already aging the water 24hrs but I don't add prime in the aging barrels to prevent the aging water from trying to cycle and the chloramine helps keep water cleaner from parasites and pathogens. Prime is added as I fill and I'm using at least a full dose which is more than enough for 2.9 ppm of chloramine if my water is coming out on the higher side of my water report.

Most of us don't add prime to the aging barrels but straight to the tank just as you are doing. That shouldn't be an issue.

[Aquaman6410]

Could there still be dissolved gasses after 24hrs with a basic air pump if it is not a strong vigorous stream of bubbles? Just trying to figure out what keeps them stressed especially after their daily water change.

I aerated a glass of water vigorously for a few hours, ph is about the same as the cans, about .05 higher in ph. Not sure if this helps a bit.

I do notice small bubbles in my tank but not from a water change. Like right now there are some in the tank towards top more. The seem to collect on the surface then get pushed back into the water by the ac110. Could these bubbles be the problem. The arent coming from the water change and almost seem to be caused by the filters. There are two large sponge filters, one hydro and one hikari brand. Then the AC110 with a filter max 3 sponge prefilter. Are these causing bubbles? Do I need more oxygenation perhaps, like additional pump and air stones?

[modealings]

Have you tested your aging barrel for ammonia/nitrites? My city claims to add chloramine but I still will get cycles if I don't clean the barrel regularly. (I don't add prime until it goes into the tank either.)

[Aquaman6410]

Only shows ammonia but that's from the chloramine from what ive heard/read. Just did my nightly daily water change, 60% today. Microbubbles were in my tank before the change as stated above. They seemed fine during siphoning, just all scared of siphon tube like usual. Fish seemed fine while I was checking AC110 to make sure it was clean and no air was getting in somewhere. All good. Started filling and fish still seem fine. Some actually swim up to where the water is entering which is out of a pvc u-tube I made beneath the surface. Towards the top I remove the tube going down in the tank otherwise it will back siphon to my aging barrels. So the last few gallons come out from an elbow and some splashing occurs. This causes some micro bubbles. I add prime at this point. Once the water stops now, they all seem to slow down and stop swimming actively, seem to almost freeze up. Some chasing occurs a few minutes after but are all way less curious and dont care to see me at the top like normal. Today, I turned on just the sponge filters first and noticed some microbubbles in the water. I added a 3rd airline tube at the surface really quick with no air stone and the surface agitation seemed to make more microbubbles. Removed this airline and turned on the AC110, noticed this kicked up a ton of microbubbles and now the tank has a bunch. Almost like any filter surface agitation causes microbubbles. The surface almost seems to have a film which may just be a collection of bubbles. Is this caused by gas still in the water? Is 24hrs or my pump not enough? Do I need a lot more agitation from the bottom of the aging barrel? I also sometimes see clearish pieces floating in the water after a wc and I assumed its just harmless bacteria from a filter but maybe its slime coat? I don't see anything odd on them or coming off, was not sure what that would look like. Any ideas? I'm lost and really don't want to stress the fish anymore but don't want to give up.

Sorry about any typos, writing from my tablet.

[atlantadiscus]

Have you contacted Hans and asked his opinion or read the info on the official Stendker website for possiblw solutions yet? Lots of good info on caring for Stendker Discus on their site.

[DJW]

Agitation bubbles are not the same as microbubbles. True microbubbles appear as if out of nowhere from dissolved gas and expand on surfaces, in gills, and sometimes within tissues, whereas agitation bubbles are harmless IME.

You seem to be doing everything right. 24 hours with airstones on the bottom along with a circulation pump should be plenty of time to disperse excess gases. My water has a lot of CO2, which is much more soluble in water... it takes longer to leave. Most microbubbles are likely nitrogen, which leaves in minutes or a couple of hours.

The only thing I would do differently is add the Prime at the beginning of filling, not at the end. I don't need to use a conditioner, but I think the recommended way is to add at the beginning. You might check on that.

[Jason.M]

Adding the prime before refilling and not after is what stood out to me as well. I also haven't a need for it as I'm on well water, but I would add it before refilling instead of exposing the fish to the chlorine for that short period of time. I would suspect this is your problem.

[Aquaman6410]

I honestly mistyped that. I add before I fill the tank. I apologize for the confusion.

[stretch5]

I think your over thinking it all. Such large water changes daily is what is freaking your fish out hey.
Mine normally dart all over the place when i do stuff in my tank, especially water changes.
30% 2x a week is heaps. I only do 30% once a week and mine still stress out at water change times.

[Akili]

I think your over thinking it all. Such large water changes daily is what is freaking your fish out hey.
Mine normally dart all over the place when i do stuff in my tank, especially water changes.
30% 2x a week is heaps. I only do 30% once a week and mine still stress out at water change times.This a misconception, there are many of SimplyDiscus members who do 100% water changes daily. All my tanks get a water change daily ranging from 50% to 95% and none of my fish freak out. Occasional darting is about the extend of it.

[atlantadiscus]

Unless your tank is grossly over stocked,you are feeding the tank instead of the fish,or your filter is not processing ammonia effectively,I cant possibly understand why one would need to change 100% of their water every day.That level of changing water is doing more for the fish keeper than the fish!

[MD.David]

I would like to make a few suggestions:
First thing I would do is:
if you aging the water and pretreating the water, you could add an inline filter to pre-remove chloramine, chlorine, lead etc. This may help with the irration issue.
A few other things to consider:
1) keep doing your water changes! [i personally highly doubt less water changes will improve anything besides make it worse].
2) what type of tank are they in? Barebottom? If so can they see thru the bottom? Can the fish see out all the way around the tank?
[possibly issue: some discus hate clear bottom tanks with all clear sides, put something under tank to cover the see thru bottom].
*this could be completely off, if you have substrate and they can't see thru the bottom and sides plz ecnore#2 but st least it's something to think about.
3)possibly the chorimine being treated with seachem safe could be cause an irration, try treating the water in a separate container for a minimum of 2 hrs prior, this may help stabilize the water before adding it to the tank.


It does sound like something is irratating the fish, but keep up with the water changes, they need clean water, not changing it will make it worse sooner or later.

[Akili]

I only do 30% once a week and mine still stress out at water change times.stretch5 30% per week is not enough for Discus and to be honest if you keep up the same regimen you are going to end up posting in the Emergency Room sooner or later.

[Filip]

Try to do a 100% WC with aged water , just to see how they react. Just thinking out loud , maybe your pH levels drop during the day because of too much bioload or not well cycled filter and when you change only half of the water you raise the pH and make the pottential ammonia presence in the water more poisonous and irritating for them .

If this doesnt help , I would start doing 2- 30-40% daily changes rather than one big WC .

P.s I notice that when I age the water with a strong filter pump with a sponge instead of just an airstone the sponge catch up the microbubbles much more quickly and effectivlly . The pump litteraly starts floating because the sponge inside gets full of trapped gasses .

[stretch5]

stretch5 30% per week is not enough for Discus and to be honest if you keep up the same regimen you are going to end up posting in the Emergency Room sooner or later.

when i had them in a 105g tank i was doing 50% 2x a week when they were 2". now their around 3.5" and 9 of them in a planted 160G tank.
They seem to be doing well. Im just coming out of winter and will increase water changes again once in summer. Hastle warming so much water any more than 30% and my water temps are down to 22c which the fish hate.
I dont age my water just add enough Seachem Safe to treat for 160G and fill tank straigh back up with the garden hose through the games room window. Been doing this fine for months now no issue.

[stretch5]

Do you worm your tank monthly?

[brewmaster15]

Lets put something to rest on this ..If someone does 100% water change 5 times a day it isn't going to stress their fish out if the water is close to the same parameters as whats in the tank. If fish are stressed out after a water change theres something different about whats going in the tank compared to whats there already.

Aquaman, you can still have dissolved gases in the water even though the pH doesn't move much during aeration. The point of aging was to see if the gas was co2. C02 will cause the water parameters to swing.

Honestly, Te easiest thing to try is to age your water and see how your fish react with a water change. If aging works, gases are the problem....and they are almost always the problem when fish are stressed after a water change provided you treat for any chemicals like chloramines or chlorine.


hth,
al

[DJW]

If I'm reading this right, the OP ages the heck out of his water and always has... see posts 1,3,8,10... and prior threads.

[MD.David]

I totally agree with Al on this one, now that you have noted that you do not age and straight from tap, you need to age the water Mate!
Al has made some very good points about water changes and how it should not stress your fish unless water parameters are different.

It's pretty simple from here on in, your water parameters are different, start aging your water over night, let's see the results.

I will tell you, I change 80-90% daily and 100% 2-3 times a week, then I do a 100% water change I shut my heaters off (thru a power bar they are plugged into) and I drain out all the water, the discus lay flat on there sides for about 5 seconds and I refil the tank with aged water, heated to the same temperature as their original tank water. None of my fish ever stress out, maybe a little flip of a fin but that's it, in 20mins they are back to a full tank of clean water and nothing seems abnormal at all.
This is where you need to be, and I would suspect it's that your water isn't aged.


when i had them in a 105g tank i was doing 50% 2x a week when they were 2". now their around 3.5" and 9 of them in a planted 160G tank.
They seem to be doing well. Im just coming out of winter and will increase water changes again once in summer. Hastle warming so much water any more than 30% and my water temps are down to 22c which the fish hate.
I dont age my water just add enough Seachem Safe to treat for 160G and fill tank straigh back up with the garden hose through the games room window. Been doing this fine for months now no issue.

[Clawhammer]

Seems like a mystery, so I will throw this out there since I see the OP is from Florida. I was in Orlando on business two weeks ago and found the tap water to be pretty nasty with a strong sulfur smell. I did a little research (now that I keep discus I am a little obsessed with water) and read that Florida is the worst state for water quality. Something like 7/10 of the worst municipalities for water are in Florida. Could it be sulfur or some containment that is filtered out of the water by the OP's filter that is replenished when changing water?

[brewmaster15]

Given that Dan pointed out you stated you age, I had a closer look at your original post and theres a couple of things I don't understand. Looks like I missed the aging part, but honestly what you describe is common for unaged water with gas.



I've had my discus for about 4 weeks now. They were ordered from Hans at 3in size. Ive been having problems with one of them staying hidden, not eating much, smaller than others. Keep thinking it could be stress. Now one of my turqs are also acting like this. I have 9 discus total and the other 7 are growing more and eat a ton. I fear there is something stressing the fish and I can't figure it out. Higher temps do seem to help. I have the tank around 85 to 86f. Ive done daily water changes of at least 60 to 80% since I've had them with heated, aerated, aged tap for 24 hrs. Every time I do a water change, they act weird and stressed. The larger I do, the worse they may seem. They are even okay as I siphon, its once the tank has new water which makes me curious. The next morning, they are all normal again, beghing for food, except the two smaller stressed ones. I noticed after the water change, they seem to be less energetic, rapidly flick their ventral fins, and even flash against objects and randomly dart. They seem irritated and seem better off if I never changed the water. My tank is around ph of 7.10 to 7.20 on average according to apex controller. Temp around 85, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, barely any nitrates. After water change, the temp may be around 85 to 86 at most so nothing bad and ph meter shows 7.45 at highest. Ph is usually back to 7.2 by next day. Kh is around 1 and I keep a cup of crushed coral in my AC110 to help add some kh because my ph will start to crash over a couple days of heavy waste. Everything tends to look stable enough to me. The only thing I can think of is chloramines. My tap has 3.5 ppm of chloramine according to tests and city water report. Tap will show about 1ppm of ammonia if tested out of tap or aged, guessing from chloramines. I dose at least 1 to 1.5x the needed amount of prime since the chloramines are higher than most cities. Is this still irritating the fish perhaps even with the use of prime. Should I back down on water changes? I dont mind large dailys but they seem to make things worse. I don't want to use RO because that will just get expensive. Its a 75g for grow out now but at least a 125g once the get a bit bigger. Tank is bare bottom with an AC110 and two large sponge filters. I'm trying my best to do everything I've learned through the forum but something with my water just seems horrible and I'm feeling defeated. Please help me figure this out.

I went to your journal Bryan,



My garage was setup for aging water for the discus. I have (2) 44 gallon brute cans and one 32 gallon brute. I am only using the (2) 44 gallon ones currently and fill them with water from the cold tap. (I have a spigot in my garage that is connected to the cold water supply). I am in South Florida so cold water right now is about 80 degrees on average in my garage. I have two 150 watt Eheim heaters to heat water (if needed) to 84 degrees or close to it. One heater in each brute. Each brute also has two air stones pumped by some petco brand air pump and circulated with a Koralia 450gph pump. I pump the aged water from my garage to my living room where the tank is with a Danner Mag Drive 9.5.

[brewmaster15]

my first question is this...
I keep a cup of crushed coral in my AC110 to help add some kh because my ph will start to crash over a couple days of heavy waste. You shouldn't need this at all with your water changes and pH. Its probably not related to anything stress related, but I'd pitch it all the same while you trouble shoot.

last photo you posted was 9/1.. can you post some pics here in this thread as they are currently, please post before a water change and after a water change. This...
They seem to be less energetic, rapidly flick their ventral fins, and even flash against objects and randomly dart. after a water change is a sign theres something in that water they don't like. the way the settle down over night. Somethings off. Do you use use carbon in the tank? not advising you do, just curious of something.

al

[brewmaster15]

It may be reaching for straws but one thing on that report that stands out is its old. Its values go back over a year and things can change. Many suppliers also change their source water. I would suggest calling them and seeing if they have any more recent results of tests, Just to double check that theres not something wrong with the source water.

al

[Ryan925]

my first question is this... You shouldn't need this at all with your water changes and pH. Its probably not related to anything stress related, but I'd pitch it all the same while you trouble shoot.

last photo you posted was 9/1.. can you post some pics here in this thread as they are currently, please post before a water change and after a water change. This... after a water change is a sign theres something in that water they don't like. the way the settle down over night. Somethings off. Do you use use carbon in the tank? not advising you do, just curious of something.

al

Great suggestion. I think minimizing or eliminating all possible variables is a great place to start as it would seem you are doing things correctly.

I don't have any insight to what the cause would be but have been following this thread hoping that you find your answer.

[Aquaman6410]

Al, thank you for the help so far! Let me try to help out with some more details as you requested. I just added a pondmaster ap20 air pump for my aging barrels and now have two airstones vigorously bubbling in each 44 gallon can, plus left the koralia powerhead in each just for even more aeration. Just got it setup today as I got a great deal and this air pump is pretty nice and strong.

Since two discus have been extra stressed, the tank is at 87 degrees per recommendation from Hans. They dont seem to mind and I think it helps a little.

I can remove the crushed coral asap to see what happens. My AC110 currently is biological and mechanical only in addition to the two sponge filters. No chemical in the tank since day one. I never really had a need for chemical filtration in my past experience as long as the water quality was keep nice with regular water changes. Sometimes I would use purigen but rarely carbon to be honest. Nothing against it, just didn't seem to ever see a benefit.

Thry are definitely less active after a water change and much better the next morning in my opinion. I can take a video or pictures tomorrow before the water change and after to share on here.

Two of the 9 seem to be smaller than the rest and hide more, seem more stressed, and eat less. Not sure if bullying has been playing into it but figuring out what is causing this stress with water changes may help them feel better. I've been working so hard raising these guys so its just frustrating to see a problem I can't easily fix.
Its been a month today that I've been raising these guys and its been an experience for sure but these fish are worth it.

Along with the video/pictures, I'll try to share the ph/temp logs from my apex. I do seem to notice a trend as I stated logging ph with the apex. Today, prior to the water change, ph was at 7.25 and temp at 87f. After 60% change with aged heated tap, temp was at 87.3 and ph at 7.36. Pretty similar. Before refilling I added my dose of safe. Dont know if this is from the safe but I noticed the ph drops once in tank. 45 minutes after water change, ph was at 7.21, temp around 87.3. Water change was at 7pm, 45 minute later reading at 745 pm. Lights out now but at 1135pm, the current time, ph is at 7.04, temp at 87.2. This ph drop seems to be the trend. It will slowly rise back to 7.15 or so in the morning around 7am. By tomorrow nights water change it should settle back around 7.2. Hope this may help. Also, my kh out of tap is about 1 degree. It stays around a kh of 1 in the tank but will usually go to 0 if I went a week without changing water or at least it is what I observed in my past tanks. Ph would also go down with it of course.

Thanks all, pics tomorrow.

[stretch5]

did you quarantine the new fish and worm them before introducing them to you tank.
when I first started discus I was very focused on water changes but never wormed my fish and lost a few after a few months slowly one by one 4 in total. Then I started worming them monthly and never lost any since. Infact the tank runt is now the biggest fish in the tank. You can do all the water changes in the world, but if you have sick fish with worms, once they stop eating and start getting stressed the worms take over and eventually take discus life. Discus always have worms in some amounts and you need to treat them regularly. Treatments slow them down but dont kill them all completely. They also have hooks and things so if not treated regularly they can build up and cause you trouble.

If your not worming id recommend you get some KUSURI WORMER + PLUS, packet will last you for a year easily even worming once a month.


Check the below link out, its about co2 and Ph swings and how its not an issue, its more about monitoring KH

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/fish-for-planted-tanks/3736-ph-shifts-and-fish-health-due-to-co2

[Akili]

stretch5 I am sure you meant de-worming and stop de=worming your Discus every month it is not required as matter of fact your are doing more damage to the fish with it. Medications are very hard on their kidneys and other internal organs.

[stretch5]

stretch5 I am sure you meant de-worming and stop de=worming your Discus every month it is not required as matter of fact your are doing more damage to the fish with it. Medications are very hard on their kidneys and other internal organs.

yeah de-worming sorry. Didnt think of the discus kidneys, the person I got the discus off said to worm them regularly. How often do you worm yours?

[Akili]

yeah de-worming sorry. Didn't think of the discus kidneys, the person I got the discus off said to worm them regularly. How often do you worm yours?The present stock that I got in June 2015 were de-wormed during the first six weeks of quarantine and that's it.

[brewmaster15]

yeah de-worming sorry. Didnt think of the discus kidneys, the person I got the discus off said to worm them regularly. How often do you worm yours?

You definetly do not want to deworm regularly. Its not needed and as Akili said, damages the fishes organs. If you deworm them the first treatment course right, there should be little chance of them needing it again, unless you introduce worms to them again in their food or by tankmate addition. If you quarantine your fish and do it before they are introduced to your existing stock, they should be clean as well.


hth,
al

[Larry Bugg]

I don't de-worm unless there is a problem.

[nc0gnet0]

No healthy fish has ever died from too much good clean water. Plenty have from lack of it.

It's not rocket science.


-Rick

[Clawhammer]

Maybe as a test run filtration in your aging barrel and see if the fish react differently to the aged/filtered water.

[Aquaman6410]

Okay so crushed coral was removed after today's water change. Today was also the first day of being heavily aerated with the ap20 pump but I don't see any difference in ph with the aged water so that's good. Water change was around 70% or so tonight. pH monitor was showing around 7.31 once first filled which was around 6:30PM. It is not 9:25PM and ph is down to 7.05. Usually ph slowly comes back up by morning but we will see now that crushed coral is gone and it will rely on natural buffer in my water which isn't much.

Fish seemed to not be as stressed lately, today went decent for them except for my usual 2 that seemed to be always stressed and not eat much. I think they are bullied so that may not help. I only remembered to get one good pic before the water change. I did get some pictures of them after the water change plus a video which can be viewed in HD on youtube. They don't swim as actively after their water change as they do prior. Might be normal and I'm worrying. You will see the flicking of the fins at around 1:00 into the video from my Scribbelt. You will see the smaller turq hiding and looking darker. He doesn't eat much within this last week and used to be more outgoing. The Fire Red has been very reclusive and eats only small pieces of things and eats very calmly since day 1. The other 7 eat like pigs and tend to be out. The 7 greet me at the top when it is time to feed.

So take a look at the pics/video and let me know. They came from Hans at the 3+" size and it has been a month. The largest one may be approaching 4" where as the shy two seem to have grown very little. Don't know if stress is a factor. Let me know if all look healthy as well. Considering adding carbon and or purigen to the tank to help reduce any possible contaminants.

Took this picture as water was draining, all were pretty normal
http://i.imgur.com/q7HkciM.jpg

Safe added, tank is filled, and filters/heater back on. Fish are kind of hovering in this picture and not swimming actively.
http://i.imgur.com/tL7Hn4a.jpg

Same here
http://i.imgur.com/yLsgfI1.jpg

Small Turq hiding, one of the smallest fish in the bunch if not the smallest
http://i.imgur.com/tyRd8sH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WoHJzGj.jpg

Small Turq from front
http://i.imgur.com/nlEAPAZ.jpg

Fire Red who usually hides a little bit too and eats only small leftover pieces, is not an aggressive eater. He is the second smallest of the group and may be bullied a bit I think but I catch him standing his ground every now and then
http://i.imgur.com/3Q8j6ZT.jpg


And finally the video of them post water change.
https://youtu.be/t1J3Ycwymxc


Thank you all for the help. I didn't catch any flashing on video, haven't seen it the past few water changes. It happens on occasion oddly. My water from the tap is probably just really screwy.

Bryan

[Ryan925]

Bummer it's such a mystery but it definitely not due to lack of effort on your part. Seems you are really going above and beyond to figure this thing out. Hopefully you are trending on the right direction with your results.

Best of luck

[Larry Bugg]

I don't see anything wrong with these guys. If this is how they typically look after a water change then I don't think you have a problem. Their color is good, their fins are all fully extended, seem to be swimming around ok. It is not unusual for one or two in a group to end up hiding or being a little stressed. Discus are known for aggression and someone is going to end up on the short end of the stick in a group. Just the way it usually ends up. The bigger the group to more the aggression is spread out but still often one ends up on the small side because of it.

At 3" to 4" the growth slows down dramatically. They grow to this size in 3 to 4 months and then it takes 6 months or more to double that size. In a months time you shouldn't be expecting to see dramatic growth.

[Ryan925]

I don't see anything wrong with these guys. If this is how they typically look after a water change then I don't think you have a problem. Their color is good, their fins are all fully extended, seem to be swimming around ok. It is not unusual for one or two in a group to end up hiding or being a little stressed. Discus are known for aggression and someone is going to end up on the short end of the stick in a group. Just the way it usually ends up. The bigger the group to more the aggression is spread out but still often one ends up on the small side because of it.

At 3" to 4" the growth slows down dramatically. They grow to this size in 3 to 4 months and then it takes 6 months or more to double that size. In a months time you shouldn't be expecting to see dramatic growth.

I'd say that's pretty solid advice by Larry. I think with new fish it's very easy to be overly sensitive to little things. I know I was. I think at times we over analyze behavior until we truly start to learn the dynamics of the group.

I have a small runt that gets bullied by the rest. He is significantly smaller than the larger ones. He used to get chased a lot and hang in the back a lot. As the fish have grown and matured quite a bit more seems he gets bothered less even though he is obviously the low man. He fights for food and now even tries to show a little aggression towards the large ones although he just gets ignored lol. I see much less chasing in the group now and a lot more "face-offs"

I'd say if you no longer see the flashing or any other tell-tail signs of issues maybe just continuing your routine and obeservation is best.

You may find that the behavior changes drastically as they get more used to you, your tank and eachother

Your tank looks clean as a whistle and fish look nice.

Maybe enjoy more and stress less? :)

Again all IMHO

[bluelagoon]

They sure do not look like they have issues.They look pretty bright eyed to me.

[Aquaman6410]

That's good that everyone thinks they look good. Not sure what the flicking is about that you see in the video at the 1:00 mark. They do that a lot and also shimmy and shake their whole body every once in a while.

I'm worried that the fire red and smaller turq aren't going to snap out of this stress funk and they are never going to eat like the others. I barely see the turq eating. I'm worried he is stunted or will become stunted. He came looking like how he does and I thought the eyes looked a bit big but took care of him the same as the others.

[Larry Bugg]

That's good that everyone thinks they look good. Not sure what the flicking is about that you see in the video at the 1:00 mark. They do that a lot and also shimmy and shake their whole body every once in a while.

I'm worried that the fire red and smaller turq aren't going to snap out of this stress funk and they are never going to eat like the others. I barely see the turq eating. I'm worried he is stunted or will become stunted. He came looking like how he does and I thought the eyes looked a bit big but took care of him the same as the others.

I guess I didn't see the flicking that you are referring to or I didn't see anything that looked abnormal. Shimmining and shaking their whole body is not abnormal.

[Aquaman6410]

So update time. 50 percent water changes seem to be better. I did a large water change the other day, 90 percent, because I noticed the ph was slowly going down with 60 percent daily changes. My kh is only a 1 as a reminder and crushed coral was removed per suggestion. After the large change, everyone seemed much more stressed and staying in one area. My one checkerboard had his fin clamped a little and was swimming off balance, head down. This has happened before and it clears up the next morning. But only to this one discus and large water change is the trigger. Ph only increased from 6.95 to 7.3 after the large change and temp stayed within .5 degrees. I also added carbon to the ac110, figured it can't hurt. Good news is my fire red is eating more. Still small pieces only but eating probably the most since I had them. My small turq is still stressed and not eating. Its been two weeks since I've even seen him touch food. I wish he would even attempt. He comes out sometimes but prefers to hide. He seems to still have energy as I can't catch him easily if I wanted. But he tends to swim aimlessly at times. He used to be a good eater. Now he is the only one not eating anymore. His poop looked white and stringy but he also is stressed and not eating so I don't know if disease. I did treat them all with metro in the water for 4 days straight, 250mg per 10 gallons once a day with 87 degree water. It didn't seem to change anything so I discontinued. All the others seem fine otherwise. I don't want to keep treating for anything since all seem fine except the small turq.

Any more ideas? Back down on water changes or amount? TDS for my tap is about 360. TDS with daily changes stays around that. Never tested tank above 380. I'm so defeated and wish I could fix this.

[brewmaster15]

So update time. 50 percent water changes seem to be better. I did a large water change the other day, 90 percent, because I noticed the ph was slowly going down with 60 percent daily changes. My kh is only a 1 as a reminder and crushed coral was removed per suggestion. After the large change, everyone seemed much more stressed and staying in one area. My one checkerboard had his fin clamped a little and was swimming off balance, head down. This has happened before and it clears up the next morning. But only to this one discus and large water change is the trigger. Ph only increased from 6.95 to 7.3 after the large change and temp stayed within .5 degrees. I also added carbon to the ac110, figured it can't hurt. Good news is my fire red is eating more. Still small pieces only but eating probably the most since I had them. My small turq is still stressed and not eating. Its been two weeks since I've even seen him touch food. I wish he would even attempt. He comes out sometimes but prefers to hide. He seems to still have energy as I can't catch him easily if I wanted. But he tends to swim aimlessly at times. He used to be a good eater. Now he is the only one not eating anymore. His poop looked white and stringy but he also is stressed and not eating so I don't know if disease. I did treat them all with metro in the water for 4 days straight, 250mg per 10 gallons once a day with 87 degree water. It didn't seem to change anything so I discontinued. All the others seem fine otherwise. I don't want to keep treating for anything since all seem fine except the small turq.

Any more ideas? Back down on water changes or amount? TDS for my tap is about 360. TDS with daily changes stays around that. Never tested tank above 380. I'm so defeated and wish I could fix this.


The reason why I wanted some more current Pictures is because I had a feeling that there was nothing really wrong here with your fish. Given everything discussed. Honestly, they look fine health wise. I think that you may just be overly focused on them and second guessing their health and your water changes effect on them. I'd let things go as they are without doing anything else for a while and enjoy them:o

I had a customer a few years ago when I was breeding that had a huge 300 gal tank. He stocked it with Discus and every week for months I got a panic call that he saw or noted something wrong. He was not computer savy so I drove over to check things out. The guy loved his fish,but I swear he literally put his face to glass to observe them. The slightest pimple, torn fin, or change in water clarity sent him into panic mode. In all my years, this was the most extreme case of being plugged in too deep.:)

Its awesome to watch your discus closely, as you can often find a small problem before it becomes a big one, and I think you did the right thing here Bryan , questioning the water and the behavior you saw. Its part of the learning curve.

Any more ideas? Back down on water changes or amount? TDS for my tap is about 360. TDS with daily changes stays around that. Never tested tank above 380. I'm so defeated and wish I could fix this.

I don't think you have anything to fix at this point. You look like you are doing good with your discus... Juvies can be a little temperamental in their behavior , they are jockeying for dominance,growing, and interacting.. Disturbances in their environment can set them off until they are really used to it. Be patient and keep up the good husbandry.

al

ps..
Try and enjoy them..its why we keep them!

[Aquaman6410]

I definitely enjoy them or at least try my best! I wanted to give an update. I still notice some stress amongst the fish in the evening, usually after eating/water change at night. I'm still doing a 60 percent minimum daily water change with heated, aerated aged 24hr tap. Here is the bad part. One turq, a smaller one from day one, stopped eating the past 4 weeks. It is in quarantine with larger water changes but still won't eat. Tried salt, heat treatment of 94 degrees, and a full round of metro. Nothing worked. Noticed lesions on the face area. Fish is now becoming emaciated and seems to bump into the glass. I think it is too far gone. I also noticed today one of my others has a whitish bacteria looking thing stuck to his face, small but noticeable. I also seem to see little holes on some of their faces. I've treated them with metro weeks ago when the turq was quarantined just in case but I'm now worried they are going to be next. I have no idea what could be going on but I'm wondering if maybe my water is just horrible and I'm not cut out for discus at this time. Everyone is still eating. They eat blackworms in the morning and beefheart mix at night with the occasional hans flake a couple times a week when I want to give them an extra snack. I'm feeling defeated... I already think I'm going to lose my first fish for sure. Its so odd as they beg for food in the morning and after water change /beefheart, everyone seems just off. The waste at the bottom all seems dark brown and healthy. I can't explain it but I know this isn't normal. The only thing I can think of is the water.

[Ryan925]

I definitely enjoy them or at least try my best! I wanted to give an update. I still notice some stress amongst the fish in the evening, usually after eating/water change at night. I'm still doing a 60 percent minimum daily water change with heated, aerated aged 24hr tap. Here is the bad part. One turq, a smaller one from day one, stopped eating the past 4 weeks. It is in quarantine with larger water changes but still won't eat. Tried salt, heat treatment of 94 degrees, and a full round of metro. Nothing worked. Noticed lesions on the face area. Fish is now becoming emaciated and seems to bump into the glass. I think it is too far gone. I also noticed today one of my others has a whitish bacteria looking thing stuck to his face, small but noticeable. I also seem to see little holes on some of their faces. I've treated them with metro weeks ago when the turq was quarantined just in case but I'm now worried they are going to be next. I have no idea what could be going on but I'm wondering if maybe my water is just horrible and I'm not cut out for discus at this time. Everyone is still eating. They eat blackworms in the morning and beefheart mix at night with the occasional hans flake a couple times a week when I want to give them an extra snack. I'm feeling defeated... I already think I'm going to lose my first fish for sure. Its so odd as they beg for food in the morning and after water change /beefheart, everyone seems just off. The waste at the bottom all seems dark brown and healthy. I can't explain it but I know this isn't normal. The only thing I can think of is the water.

Man such a bummer. Seems you really try to go above and beyond for your fish. There are many people that don't go to the lengths you do and don't have these issues I'm sure...

I really hope you get to the bottom of the cause before it causes you to give up. Discus can be so satisfying when things are going well. I wish you the best and hopefully someone has an answer for you

[Hart24601]

Your fish seem to look good and I hope you have it figured out. I do want to point out that not every spot in the country has tap water that is ok for fish keeping, and that isn't always reflected in the water quality reports. In Iowa here the majority of the serious fish keepers I know have switched to RO or RO/DI OR they do few water changes and have heavily planted tanks. The tap registers up to 10ppm nitrate (the EPA legal limit) but sometimes goes over before they catch it, but that isn't the whole story. There are loads of various organics that remain in the water.