Pics of discus - are they stunted ?

[rrokie8131]

88926889278892888929

Hello all,

I have had two discus in 37 gallon tank for over a month now. Had three but the blue turq was fighting pretty badly with the third so I brought him back to lfs. These two seem to get along better. The yellow marlboro tend to lightly lip poke the blue turq from time to time, but nothing ever sustained. Im actually hoping they are male and female, which will ultimately result in a pair. Not really interested in breeding however.

Anyways, I wanted all of your opinions as a friend told me that they look kind of stunted. I am unsure. I had read in the past about the eye to head ratio, but I am unsure of the validity of this. Take a look and tell me what you think.

(hope the pics work, first time posting pics here)

[discuspaul]

Welcome to the forum.
Can't really tell what size your discus are, but they look to be less than, or around, the 3" mark.
They seem to be well fed & healthy enough, but yes, they do appear to be stunted.

[rrokie8131]

Yes they are around the 2.5 to 3 inch mark

Man, I was a worried about that. Too late to return them now. I chalk this up to beginner failure as these are my first discus. So if stunted is the case what would that mean exactly? just not grow out to max size? Shortened life span?

[rrokie8131]

Thanks for the welcome btw I appreciate it.

[strawberryblonde]

Yes they are around the 2.5 to 3 inch mark

Man, I was a worried about that. Too late to return them now. I chalk this up to beginner failure as these are my first discus. So if stunted is the case what would that mean exactly? just not grow out to max size? Shortened life span?


Hi there and welcome to the forums!

Sadly yep, they do look stunted. It shouldn't affect their life span so long as they have good water conditions and proper high protein foods to eat but they probably won't reach full size. The turq looks to be a bit more stunted than the pigeon blood.

You can maximize their potential for growth at this point with the water quality and foods that I mentioned. How often are you changing water and how many times a day do you feed them? Also, what foods are they currently eating?

We all have had ups and downs while we were learning to keep discus, so just chalk this one up to a learning experience and let's see just how much growth you can get out of them. =)

[discuspaul]

Discus become stunted from having been grown out under less than ideal conditions (translation: not having been cared for properly as a youngster, with insufficient water changes & kept under far from pristine water conditions).

While they may grow to some extent when later maintained under good quality water conditions and a clean tank, with good feeding and large, frequent wcs, they will not only not reach anything near optimum growth, but will likely remain quite small for their lifetime, usually not exceeding 4" or so, max. And yes, their life span may also be shortened.

They can nonetheless remain healthy and be active & well colored, if well cared for, and can even breed.

If interested, you may care to review the thread in the link below to educate yourself on what to look for in order to avoid getting stunted discus in future.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?46982-What-not-to-buy

[Altum Nut]

A third welcome to SD.
I would consider them to be runts. Over-all as Paul mentioned to be in fair condition health wise...will they grow you ask, they might if fed well and water quality is maintained. This would mean changing water more frequently and at larger volumes. Discus are schooling fish and as mentioned in the beginners sticky a group of 6-8 would be best. You can keep these two if you want but do not introduce any new Discus without a quarantine period of at least 4-6 weeks prior to placing them in your community tank.
I would also consider removing that wave maker or at least direct against glass pane.
Enjoy the addiction and suggest going through the many useful threads before jumping in to deep.

...Ralph

[rrokie8131]

Hey thanks for the encouragement and kindness Strawberryblonde,

I tend to do 50 to 60 percent water changes every two to three days. I know it probably should be more. The tank has three HOB filters (aqua clears 30 X2 and a 50). I feed a rotation of Hikari discus pellets, freeze dried blood worms, brine shrimp, and tubiflex worm. I also have Ocean Nutrition Discus Flakes I work in. Finally, I also have a frozen food discus formula. The Blue likes all the food and really eats any of it, but the yellow is very picky as it only eats the freeze dried worms. Im trying to get it to accept the other food.

The pics below are from June 24 (about the time I first got them), so you can see if there is a difference? That brownish second blue turq is the one I took back. He definitely looks like he has a triangle body.

Im not sure if it is just hopefulness, but I feel like I can see a slight8893388934 size difference in the groupings of pics, what do you guys think?
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[rrokie8131]

Also I should mention that I feed 5 to 6 times day in very small quantities to ensure they eat most of it.

[rrokie8131]

Hey thank you Ralph, I would like to add more, but could I really add more to a 37 gallon? If so I would be all for it. I just thought I was pushing it already.

[brady]

Along with learning things as you go along you might also consider to NEVER buy discus from a lfs. The sponsors on this forum offer some beautiful, healthy fish for very fair prices. Check them out.
Jay

[John_Nicholson]

First raising discus in a planted tank often results in stunting. That is why most of us raise them ni a bare bottom tank. Some will move them to a planted tank as adults when their nutritional needs lessen. Second they would make an awful pair. You do not want to mix PB's and Non-PB's. Third that tank is not really big enough to rally do it right. For most people I would suggest a 75 gallon bare bottom tank to raise out between 6 and 10 discus.

Good luck.

-john

[DISCUS STU]

A good rule of thumb when buying small Discus is to look for a good eye to body ratio, small eyes, to body size and that fish 1.25" - 1.5" normally wouldn't be that colorful for a fish of that age. Colorful, small fish, with relatively large eyes are generally stunted, though the stronger coloration usually makes them more attractive and easier to sell to people that aren't that experienced.

Having learned the hard way, growouts in a planted aquarium even with sand as a substrate usually don't work out. Too much bacteria and potential causes of internal infection. When I did this my juvies would stop eating and had to be treated with Kanamycin Sulfate to get them eating again, meanwhile they were missing important growth time and became stunted, and achieved less than maximum size and potential.

There are people that would argue that this is ok and that's their point of view, but as someone who invests a fair amount of time and energy raising my fish I would rather see a larger fish that wasn't hampered by mistakes during their growth stage.

[strawberryblonde]

Hey thanks for the encouragement and kindness Strawberryblonde,

I tend to do 50 to 60 percent water changes every two to three days. I know it probably should be more. The tank has three HOB filters (aqua clears 30 X2 and a 50). I feed a rotation of Hikari discus pellets, freeze dried blood worms, brine shrimp, and tubiflex worm. I also have Ocean Nutrition Discus Flakes I work in. Finally, I also have a frozen food discus formula. The Blue likes all the food and really eats any of it, but the yellow is very picky as it only eats the freeze dried worms. Im trying to get it to accept the other food.



Hi again,

To maximize the potential for growth in these guys, and to learn how to grow out discus, you can start now by making some changes to the water quality and the diet of these little guys. Once you have the routine down you might decide to just keep this one tank as is, or you might decide to buy a new 55g and start raising a group of discus. Either way, you'll have learned a lot, right? ;)

So here's what to do starting tonight:

1) Do at least an 80% water change. Then, plan to do at least a 75% - 80% water change every day for the next 6 months or so. Growing discus need the minerals that fresh water provides on a daily basis in order to grow properly and plants tend to suck out all the good stuff from the water very quickly (which is part of why most people grow out discus in a bare bottom tank). The other reason for bare bottom tanks is to make it easier to suck out all the detritus that builds up in the sand/gravel so that it doesn't foul the water and contribute to a build up of bad bacteria, molds, fungus, etc.

2) During your water change, rescape the tank so that you have a large plant free area of the substrate for your discus. Discus love to graze and eat very slowly, so having a spot for food to settle where they can easily find it is optimal.
It's even better if that area is covered with a white or beige medium grit sand. I like a sand with grain size between 0.2mm - 0.5mm. It's small enough to keep detritus and food on top of it (unlike larger grained gravels where the food and feces get trapped underneath) and heavy enough not to get sucked up when you vacuum it.

3) Buy or order online some high quality, high protein foods for your discus. The Ocean Nutrition Discus flakes are quite good - I feed them to my discus along with a mix of Cobalt Discus Flakes and some Ken's Premium Immune Booster flakes and Ken's Premium Spirulina flakes. You can also purchase Beefheart flakes if you want them.

Other excellent sources of protein are Freeze Dried Blackworms. Al, the man who owns this forum, sells them and I believe you can also purchase them from Dan. Look in the sponsor section to find the links to their websites.

Then there's beefheart. It is one of the most popular forms of protein foods for growing discus, but it does require extra attention from you since it will easily foul the water if it's left to rot. When I feed beefheart I use San Fransisco Bay Brand frozen beefheart and I buy it online to save money. Dr's Foster and Smith tends to be the cheapest. The shipping price is the same no matter how much you buy, so I often buy 6 packages at a time, then add in a couple of boxes of Prime Reef frozen foods. Be sure to only feed it when you're there to either siphon out leftover bits, or about an hour before your daily water change. Give your little guys at least 30 minutes to consume as much as they can! Like I said, they are slow eaters, so you have to be patient with them. Then do your huge daily water change and from then on, feed something like flakes or the freeze dried blackworms till bedtime.

4) You are feeding the correct number of times per day, so no need to change that. Just be sure that the amount at each feeding is large enough for them to have bits to hunt down and nosh on for 30 minutes at each feeding. If they're eating it all in 5 minutes they're going to need many more feedings a day in order to get full bellies and large growth.

5) The least messy high quality food for them to eat during the day, or when you're out of the house is FDBW's (short for freeze dried blackworms). You can purchase Lee's feeding cones to put the worms into. This will allow them to graze all day long and keep them nice and full. To use the cones, be sure that they are the all-one-piece version. The one that has a separate ring and cone won't work! Turn the cone upside down and stick it to the front of your tank. Then pop two cubes of the FDBW's into the cone and walk away. Your discus will quickly learn to eat the worms from the cone!

6) Toss out your bloodworms, tubifex, etc. They aren't good sources of protein and bloodworms in particular can eventually produce allergies for you! I fed them for 2 months in my very first discus tank and sure enough, one day I had a painful rash on my arm, next day the rash reappeared when I did my usual water change and again when I fed the bloodworms. And then I accidentally touched my face before washing my hands and had THE most painful, swollen eye ever!! Oh and trust me, your discus will love the FDBW's even more than the current dried foods you're feeding. =)

And that's it for now. Put those things into practice and you should start to see some growth almost immediately.

[jmf3460]

while I do agree that your tank is not optional for raising young discus and that with this set up they were doomed to stunt from the beginning I do want to point out that your tank is beautiful!! The stark black against the vibrant greens of your hygro and swords is beautiful. I see the hygro corymbosa is growing like a weed for you, as it did for me before I got tired of it taking over and yanked it out. Great looking planted set up, unfortunately not ideal for discus.

[Larry Bugg]

The pics you posted from when you first got them shows that they were already stunted when you got them from the lfs.

As John pointed out, your tank is not really big enough for discus. Discus like a lot of cichlids are a social fish and do best in groups of 5 to 6 or more. In smaller groups aggression can become a real problem even up to the point of one of the discus becoming hurt and sick.

[DISCUS STU]

I feed a rotation of Hikari discus pellets, freeze dried blood worms, brine shrimp, and tubiflex worm. I also have Ocean Nutrition Discus Flakes I work in. Finally, I also have a frozen food discus formula.

Are you feeding freeze dried tubifex or live tubifex? Live tubifex may have harmful bacteria and parasites and is generally considered to be on the "do not feed this to your Discus" list. I do feed the freeze dried tubifex cubes in rotation with a variety of many other foods.

[rrokie8131]

Hello all. Thank you all for replying to this thread. I appreciate all of your helpfulness, understanding, and guidance. I will try to address some of you now.


while I do agree that your tank is not optional for raising young discus and that with this set up they were doomed to stunt from the beginning I do want to point out that your tank is beautiful!! The stark black against the vibrant greens of your hygro and swords is beautiful. I see the hygro corymbosa is growing like a weed for you, as it did for me before I got tired of it taking over and yanked it out. Great looking planted set up, unfortunately not ideal for discus.

Yes, Thank you for the compliment, its nice to see another plant lover. This is the best low tech planted tank I have done. Once you get the big three down (light, Co2, and frets) it really takes care of itself.


Along with learning things as you go along you might also consider to NEVER buy discus from a lfs. The sponsors on this forum offer some beautiful, healthy fish for very fair prices. Check them out.
Jay
This is one thing I have now begun to appreciate. I feel as though all of the LFS discus in this area (Michigan) look like this. I have begun to check out Hans discus as well as breeders posting on here. What a great resource, and a lot cheaper than lfs! This is definitely the route I will take when I bump up in tank size and look for more.


Hi again,

To maximize the potential for growth in these guys, and to learn how to grow out discus, you can start now by making some changes to the water quality and the diet of these little guys. Once you have the routine down you might decide to just keep this one tank as is, or you might decide to buy a new 55g and start raising a group of discus. Either way, you'll have learned a lot, right? ;)

Yes, this is very true lol.

So here's what to do starting tonight:

1) Do at least an 80% water change. Then, plan to do at least a 75% - 80% water change every day for the next 6 months or so. Growing discus need the minerals that fresh water provides on a daily basis in order to grow properly and plants tend to suck out all the good stuff from the water very quickly (which is part of why most people grow out discus in a bare bottom tank). The other reason for bare bottom tanks is to make it easier to suck out all the detritus that builds up in the sand/gravel so that it doesn't foul the water and contribute to a build up of bad bacteria, molds, fungus, etc.

2) During your water change, rescape the tank so that you have a large plant free area of the substrate for your discus. Discus love to graze and eat very slowly, so having a spot for food to settle where they can easily find it is optimal.
It's even better if that area is covered with a white or beige medium grit sand. I like a sand with grain size between 0.2mm - 0.5mm. It's small enough to keep detritus and food on top of it (unlike larger grained gravels where the food and feces get trapped underneath) and heavy enough not to get sucked up when you vacuum it.

This is a really good point, I have taken out all of the front row plants and Blue is already bopping along the bottom checking everything out. This has really made a difference that I like. Before he would really force his body down through the plants lol.

3) Buy or order online some high quality, high protein foods for your discus. The Ocean Nutrition Discus flakes are quite good - I feed them to my discus along with a mix of Cobalt Discus Flakes and some Ken's Premium Immune Booster flakes and Ken's Premium Spirulina flakes. You can also purchase Beefheart flakes if you want them.

Other excellent sources of protein are Freeze Dried Blackworms. Al, the man who owns this forum, sells them and I believe you can also purchase them from Dan. Look in the sponsor section to find the links to their websites.

Thank for the Colbalt suggestion, I have been looking into this food, especially the black worm. I wold like to try that and I didn't know I could find it through here. Thank you for this point.

Then there's beefheart. It is one of the most popular forms of protein foods for growing discus, but it does require extra attention from you since it will easily foul the water if it's left to rot. When I feed beefheart I use San Fransisco Bay Brand frozen beefheart and I buy it online to save money. Dr's Foster and Smith tends to be the cheapest. The shipping price is the same no matter how much you buy, so I often buy 6 packages at a time, then add in a couple of boxes of Prime Reef frozen foods. Be sure to only feed it when you're there to either siphon out leftover bits, or about an hour before your daily water change. Give your little guys at least 30 minutes to consume as much as they can! Like I said, they are slow eaters, so you have to be patient with them. Then do your huge daily water change and from then on, feed something like flakes or the freeze dried blackworms till bedtime.

I was feeding a lot of the flakes (ocean nutrition) but Blue would go crazy on them and eventually became bloated (his swim bladder was affected and his orientation was off "head standing") epsom salt and raising the temp to 86-87 helped a lot with this. I keep the temp at 86 all the time now.

4) You are feeding the correct number of times per day, so no need to change that. Just be sure that the amount at each feeding is large enough for them to have bits to hunt down and nosh on for 30 minutes at each feeding. If they're eating it all in 5 minutes they're going to need many more feedings a day in order to get full bellies and large growth.

5) The least messy high quality food for them to eat during the day, or when you're out of the house is FDBW's (short for freeze dried blackworms). You can purchase Lee's feeding cones to put the worms into. This will allow them to graze all day long and keep them nice and full. To use the cones, be sure that they are the all-one-piece version. The one that has a separate ring and cone won't work! Turn the cone upside down and stick it to the front of your tank. Then pop two cubes of the FDBW's into the cone and walk away. Your discus will quickly learn to eat the worms from the cone!

6) Toss out your bloodworms, tubifex, etc. They aren't good sources of protein and bloodworms in particular can eventually produce allergies for you! I fed them for 2 months in my very first discus tank and sure enough, one day I had a painful rash on my arm, next day the rash reappeared when I did my usual water change and again when I fed the bloodworms. And then I accidentally touched my face before washing my hands and had THE most painful, swollen eye ever!! Oh and trust me, your discus will love the FDBW's even more than the current dried foods you're feeding. =)

I have heard about reactions. Luckily nothing for me yet. I have heard varying reports on the freeze dried. All worms I talked about are Omega One freez dried and I thought that this would help. I will say they do have an addictive quality to them for the yellow discus. That is all it will eat.

And that's it for now. Put those things into practice and you should start to see some growth almost immediately.


The pics you posted from when you first got them shows that they were already stunted when you got them from the lfs.

As John pointed out, your tank is not really big enough for discus. Discus like a lot of cichlids are a social fish and do best in groups of 5 to 6 or more. In smaller groups aggression can become a real problem even up to the point of one of the discus becoming hurt and sick.

I hope to have a bigger tank some day. Im kind of stuck like this for now with these discus. Thank you for the observation. That was what I was afraid of. The best I can do not is love them anyways and attempt to give them the best environment. I will have to just marvel at all of your tanks lol!


Are you feeding freeze dried tubifex or live tubifex? Live tubifex may have harmful bacteria and parasites and is generally considered to be on the "do not feed this to your Discus" list. I do feed the freeze dried tubifex cubes in rotation with a variety of many other foods.

No all the worms are freez dried Omega One. I have never feed live foods. Someone suggested a feeding cone and I think this would help with messes a lot as well. I think I will look into this.

[DISCUS STU]

Best of luck! Though like my semi regular gym attendance it's more the work than the luck. With all the good advice and experience from this site and a wealth of good info. available you should be looking at a great deal of enjoyment from this hobby.

A little high maintenance for good results but well worth it.