My biggest, My prettiest, My saddest, My scardiest discus :(

[madmisha]

Greetings Discus lovers! it is my first post here :) and i come seeking your aid.....
I have a 66 gal/240 liters planted community tank.....and my tank is as community as it gets......
I am new to the discus world in general,thought i have been keeping fish for 4 years now.....i did a bit of research on Discus in general before trying to add them to my tank,but i guess it wasn't nearly enough.....and my problem now is,that 2 out of my 7 discus,the largest and prettiest two,are stuck each in his own shadowy back corner of the tank and only come out for short periods of time during the day-when none is around the tank....
or when they get poked out by another discus,who they then shoo away and get back in their spots.
The other discus swim freely around the aquarium,some more then others,but still....they come begging for food and come out to eat whenever theres something that smells good in the tank......but these two? they only move an inch towards the food,suck it in and back away instantly.
Its been like this for about 2 MONTHS :(

my water parameters are all ok. amonia is 0. nitrites are 0. nitrates ~20 mg/l. no phosphate issues either.
PH is 7.4 and KH is 5.however,all of my discus were born and raised at a local farm,in similar water parameters. about 80% of the tank is planted

the population of my tank is (as i said,its very mixed and as community is it gets):

7 discus,which size of which are 7 to 13 CM.
8 khuli loaches
5 hillstream loaches
3 altum angels,which are nearing adult size
2 blue rams
3 rosy barbs
3 denison barbs
1 l177 golden nugget
1 l200
1 l128
5 otocinclus
10 cardinal tetras
10 rummy nose tetras
8 ember tetras
1 geophagus altifronos,which is still very small
1 geophagus tafajos which also is very small
1 violet dragon goby
3 bumblebee gobys
6 silvertip tetras
6 lemon tetras
7 emperor tetras
5 colombian tetras
5 green corydoras
1 dwarf gourami
betta male and female
2 bolvinian rams
2 festivum cichlids
2 festivum sturisomas
5 swordtails
3 ruby barbs
4 pink danios
4 wernery rainbows


things i have tried so far: adding JBL's Tormec to my filter and adding the liquid version to my tank to make the tank more "blackwater'ish" which the discus seemed to like,but not enough to become active.
ive tried adding seachems anti stress,but it didnt seem to do much good for longer then 30 minutes or so.
ive tried changing the lighting of the tank,no effect.

the only time i saw those fish swiming happily was when ive done some re-planting,and a whole lot of dust went in the water....which probably made them feel safer i guess......

note that atleast 3 of the discus are swiming happily all the time,another two are a bit more shy but do come begging for food etc,but the last 2 are just awfully unhappy :(
is there anything else i could try,which doesnt involve breaking up my tank? or are these two a lost cause and i should try returning them to the store?

they seem to be in a good physical condition,no signs of illness or anything else.....

thanks for reading and trying to help <3

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Michael and welcome to Simply. To put it gently you have way more fish then your tank can honestly support. For a 66 gallon it would be consider maxed with just seven discus. I think the best path forward is to get another tank and move the discus to it. A 75 would be a perfect size. A little research would be useful here.

The following link will help to introduce you to the basics of discus keeping and is a nice guide written by one of our moderators.

Beginner's Guide to Getting Started with Discus (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?86009-Beginner-s-Guide-to-Getting-Started-with-Discus)

There are many threads at the top of the Discus Basics for Beginners section as stickies Discus Basics for Beginners (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?48-Discus-Basics-for-Beginners) and can be read at any time.

[Reesj]

I'm quite new here and not much Discus experince! But imo the problem you have is too many fish and tooo many active fish wizign around! How much WPG also for plants btw ? For example I'm also running a planted tank as there is no way I will go for bare bottom ugliness; But i'm using like 0.6-0.7 WPG (With very good reflector). Even then when the light is up they are very skitish and go to a corner where light is minimal!
So in my limited experince,
1. Do something about overstock and too much active fast swimmers
2. Check your WPG and do something about it!

[John_Nicholson]

I did not see where you stated how much water you are changing but the reason that probably 90% of new discus keepers fail is because they over populate their tanks, they think they are going to raise their discus in a planted tank, and they do not listen those of us that have done it for years. I sometimes get a bad rap because I tend be very straight forward but if you want success take your discus and put them in a bare bottom tank, change 50% of your water a day, and feed a good quality high protein diet. I prefer a good beef heart mix. You do these things and you will have success. Move your fish back to a planted tanks in 12 to 18 months.....but I realize that there is about a 99% chance you will ignore me. Thats ok but when your fish crash and burn I want you to think back to this post and when you try discus a second time do it this way and watch the results.

-john

[brewmaster15]

I did not see where you stated how much water you are changing but the reason that probably 90% of new discus keepers fail is because they over populate their tanks, they think they are going to raise their discus in a planted tank, and they do not listen those of us that have done it for years. I sometimes get a bad rap because I tend be very straight forward but if you want success take your discus and put them in a bare bottom tank, change 50% of your water a day, and feed a good quality high protein diet. I prefer a good beef heart mix. You do these things and you will have success. Move your fish back to a planted tanks in 12 to 18 months.....but I realize that there is about a 99% chance you will ignore me. Thats ok but when your fish crash and burn I want you to think back to this post and when you try discus a second time do it this way and watch the results.

-john and so speaketh the forum Curmudgeon :o

If you get by the "John Speak" here, what hes trying to do is help .lol He's just a little rough around the edges...but means well. He's also fairly spot on as to the over stocking issues, and general need for better husbandry while raising Discus. I'd suggest that you spend some time here..
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?48-Discus-Basics-for-Beginners and you may understand better how to succeed with these fish.

hth,
al

[madmisha]

First of all,thank you for the quick response,gentlemen.
Second Hand Pa - according to what do you say im overstocked? there seems to be a planty of room in the tank,and my filters handle the waste just fine....also all the fish manage to eat etc.and sadly,moving to a bigger tank is not an option for me at the moment :(

Reesj - my lighting is around 1W/G, and a bit more reading got me aware they might be bothered by the faster moving fish in my tank.....the fastest and most active would be the rosy barbs,i will try relocating them and wait a while to see how the discus react.....

John_Nicholson - what do you mean my fish will "crush and burn?"

[FishFanMan]

Wow Michael, I would love to see your tank. Can you post some pics or vids?

[YSS]

Second Hand Pa - according to what do you say im overstocked? there seems to be a planty of room in the tank,and my filters handle the waste just fine....also all the fish manage to eat etc.and sadly,moving to a bigger tank is not an option for me at the moment :(



You have a lot more fish in your 66G tank than I have in my 265G tank. Just because you see empty space in your tank between fish, doesn't mean your tank has room for more fish. Your tank is overstocked by at least 300%. Some will say more...

[DISCUS STU]

OK I'll run the risk of being repetitive but this is an INCREDIBLE amount of fish in a 66 gal. tank.

If people are going to keep Discus successfully they usually need to understand that Discus and their specific needs have to be the priority. The fact that you only have a problem with these two is pretty amazing but that may change. Due to their special care and upkeep, Discus aren't really community fish. Other fish can be added to a Discus tank, but it need to be a Discus tank first, then compatible species can be added.

What does this mean? Check out the guidelines for keeping Discus in other parts of this forum. Everything from keeping bare bottom tanks, dietary needs, temperature requirements, etc. that make them generally higher maintenance than other fish. More work but worth it.

[Braydon00]

.................I'm surprised you were able to fit that many fish in a 66, I really didn't think you could do that........EXTREMELY overstocked.

[madmisha]

OK,with all the respect, i've read that my tank is overstocked in the first comment......but could anyone explain according to what they say my tank is overstocked? is there some written in stone rule for that? because when many people say something,but no explanation is given,the thing starts sounding parroted.
from what logic tells me,in an overstocked tank, fish will seem less healthy,stressed,lose color and water quality will be an issue.
this is not the case in my tank with any of the fish,aside of these 2 out of 7 discus,which have been acting so stressed from the day i got them,and they too do sometimes come out when no people are around.
i understand now after the research some of the faster moving fish i have,such as the barbs mainly,who are very active,may not be very suitable for discus....however,they are not a threat to them, and 5/7 of the discus are very fine with them,all but the largest 2.

[jmf3460]

I have neglected to say anything for the reason of not sounding rude but now I can not hold back. This has got to be the most irresponsible example of fishkeeping that I have ever seen. The amount of fish and the different breeds of fish you have in your tank leads me to believe that you just pick fish and throw them in your tank without doing any kind of research whatsoever. Do you realize that the geophagus species you have (geophagus altifronos) can get to be 12", a quick google search would have lended that. Speaking from personal experience, festivum cichlids, are far too aggressive to be in a tank with discus much less a 66gallon housing 4 festivum. The gold nugget pleco has potential to get big as well as lots of other fish. not to mention your "altum angelfish." Which I doubt are actually altum angels because anyone with sense enough to know what altum angels are and pay the amount they cost should have sense enough not to house a tank such as yours. Im not sure how old you are but this tank reminds me of something a 5th grader with an enabling parent would keep. Throwing any fish in there that looks pretty at the store. I'm actually quite surprised there are not salt water fish in your tank alongside the freshwater fish. Whats next a great white shark??

[Second Hand Pat]

Let's start with the stocking guidelines for discus which is one discus per ten gallons. Based just on this you are overstocked. Please feel free to research the guidelines for your dither fish. If two of your discus have been stressed since day one this should indicte a problem.

[Tankster]

I would love to see pictures of this tank. I just can't fathom that many fish in a 66 gallon tank! Visual eye candy but my god, how is it possible for your filtration to keep up with such a HUGE bio-load? How often do you change the water / vacuum the bottom? You mentioned you have been keeping fish for 4 years but I am wondering how long this tank has been up and running at this stocking level?
John mentioned "crash and burn" because your tank will hit a tipping point where beneficial bacteria will no longer be able to keep up with ammonia produced by fish feces and urine as well as left over food that settles into plant crevices and substrate. The tank will crash, ammonia will go through the roof and your fish will die.


I know your first reaction is to probably go into defense mode as it seems like we are all attacking you... that is far from the case. Hopefully you can catch this in time to save your fish... you have quite a bit of money swimming around in there and I would hate to see it crash.

What solutions can I offer? I am not sure since you said a bigger tank is out of the question. Maybe a tank with the same footprint that is taller, much, much taller? In any case you are going to have to re-home some of your fish as you need to get the bio-load down. Once you get things to a manageable level, you will have to decide what you want to do with the Discus. I don't foresee those fish making it to adulthood and if they do, most likely will be stunted. A full grown discus that has been properly raised will make it to between 6 and 7 inches with the monsters hitting 8. That might not sound like a lot but they should be just as tall as they are long and a 6 inch fish can take up 23 square inches, or more, of your tank.

Lastly, don't feel bad and please don't feel insulted. I have only been raising discus for a short while and have seen that this happens ALL the time. The fish are beautiful, LFS's tell you they are easy and before you know it - here you are.

[Tankster]

is there some written in stone rule for that? because when many people say something,but no explanation is given,the thing starts sounding parroted.


The general rule is 1 inch per gallon. Discus 1 fish per 10 gallons.

Just giving each fish an inch (including the discus) you are at 124 inches which would indicate the need for a 124 gallon tank. Now, figure out what the adult size of your fish are - google will help you, and you will see why we are all freaking out.

[YSS]

Your right, you must have gotten bad stock. Make sure to keep everyone posted. Check back in six months or so and please let us know how everyone's doing.

Another guideline is 1" of fish per gallon of water which means you can have 33 2" fish in a 66G tank.

[XAnhLe]

When I first saw the stocks, my jaws dropped lol then I saw the tank is 66G, I was even in more shocked. Thats way too overstocked even for a 90G tank.

[Reesj]

OK,with all the respect, i've read that my tank is overstocked in the first comment......but could anyone explain according to what they say my tank is overstocked? is there some written in stone rule for that? because when many people say something,but no explanation is given,the thing starts sounding parroted.
from what logic tells me,in an overstocked tank, fish will seem less healthy,stressed,lose color and water quality will be an issue.
this is not the case in my tank with any of the fish,aside of these 2 out of 7 discus,which have been acting so stressed from the day i got them,and they too do sometimes come out when no people are around.
i understand now after the research some of the faster moving fish i have,such as the barbs mainly,who are very active,may not be very suitable for discus....however,they are not a threat to them, and 5/7 of the discus are very fine with them,all but the largest 2.

Try this site aqadvisor.com and you can check the stocking level for a tank btw! The level normally ok would be what they say around 120-150% as 100% is actually too low! This site seems a bit too hostile and lacking information as I found out as well!

[bluelagoon]

Festivum cichlids won't only harass your discus but will slowing pick off and eat some of those smaller fish.When they reach 3-4" size they're PITA.It really does appear to be overstocked even before the discus went in the tank.In a tank such as yours,discus don't have a very good chance in growing out properly.In a few months you will begin to see your discus look stunted and overall hugly/deformed in appearance.

[madmisha]

Ahhh......where do i begin....prehaps with a thank you to the so people here who actually seem to try to help and provide information.
the Noahs ark comment actually was very funny, specially because its true! what can i say,im a man who loves variety.might aswell use that one to describe my tank from now on :)

jmf3460
isnt being a troll and spamming against the rules in this forum?
perhaps you should have held back from responding overall, they say silence is golden for a reason. or maybe atleast practice what you preach and find out in "a quick google search" that sturisoma festivum and festivum cichlids are very,very different things. same goes for the fact there are sub breeds of altum angels,some of which are far from the uber expansive,wild caught,fully grown altums.

YSS -
Ok, i am unfamiliar with that rule,and im afriad i cannot say i accept it....each aquarium,each fish is different.....its a too dynamic subject to have strict rules for ....
for example,assuming the right filteration and heating is provided, 3 hatchets,3 silvertip tetras and 3 khuli loaches could probably live a fine life in 1 gallon,the fish occupy different water levels,and do not really threaten or at all interract with each other.....this rule seems more fitting for something like african cichlids....and there too,it can be flexed for fish which are unlikely to suffer aggression-such as armored catfish, or even eels assuming they have good hiding spots....


.
Thank you very much for the reasonable and trying to help comments! i will include pictures of the tank at the end of this post. but like i said-while it looks like alot of fish on paper, they are widely distributed through the tank,the loaches for example,are rarely seen,as they are always behind some bush or so,scavenging.
i do not over-feed my fish to the point leftovers get stuck in the substrate for more then a few minutes-and food that does get there-well,the loaches,corys and other scavangers do a great job at keeping it clean :)
why would my bacteria fail? they are ok now,they were ok for months, and unless something big happens like a toxin gets in my tank (which will give me alot more then bacteria to worry about), or the power goes out for hours....then i see no reason for it failing. i observe my tank daily,and keep test kits,if i see fish in trouble,i almost always test the water. if something isnt right-water changes are our best freind,are they not?
do not worry,i cam here seeking advice,and with it,it was obvious criticism will come,which im always opened for......but,theres a very big difference between constructive criticism and throwing one-liner orders coated in some macho talk about how awesome the commenter is and how much the person he talks about sucks,without anything to back up his order....people like this arent "rough around the edges",they are ...how to say it in the nicest way possible...."unpleasent".
the 10 galon for an adult discus sounds reasonable i guess, if my next couple of plans to help these 2 discus feel more at home fail too,im going to return them to the store or just sell them to other hobbists in hope they find a better home...
and finally,im well aware that some of my fish have the potential to become very large,such as the geophagus and the plecos.....but getting to that size will take them years,and ive mentioned right away they are small at the moment,which means,thier size is not a problem. by the time they begin reaching that size - either ill indeed move to a larger tank,or give my fish away to bigger homes while bringing myself new little ones to raise.


also on a different note,i find it interesting how people suggest "get a bigger tank" so easily,are fish tanks that cheap in america? where i live commercial fish tanks are a pretty expansive thing to have,and custom made are even more....


http://s24.postimg.org/lsro6said/20150120_093644.jpg
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[Second Hand Pat]

OK guys, I removed some of the posts which are borderline trolling. Let's give Michael a change to read.

[pitdogg2]

Oh my what an overloaded tank. Fish do grow contrary to what many foul pet shops will tell you."fish only grow as big as the tank there in" In other word if you keep them in a small tank they will stay small...horse hockey. Discus are diurnal you have many nocturnal fish in that tank and they may cause big stress to your Discus. I personally cannot fathom WHY you do not think you have overloaded the tank.

Many here have hit the nail on the head squarely. Only YOU can decide to take some great advice form those here, and still keep your head in the sand. The crash and burn John stated is going to happen your bio-load will eventually overwhelm the tank no matter how many filters you have your pH will crash causing a myriad of problems you will not be able to keep up with. hence Burn Very dead fish.....

[bluelagoon]

Nice angels but they appear to be a scalare and altum hybid.I would bet money on that.

[ericNH]

Well I tip my hat to you Michael. The pictures show that your tank is cared for, but i think putting discus in there was not the best idea.

Accept the "unpleasant"ness. It's actually kindness. Take the advice given here on SimplyDiscus. I was in your shoes once...

[nc0gnet0]

Yikes......

Well, the angels look nice?

Now for the bad news.......Most of your discus are culls, with the exception of the one pigeon blood, the rest all appear extremely thin, pinched forehead, thickened gill plates common with prolonged exposure to less than ideal water, etc etc. I could go on, but what others have been saying are now obvious. Spend some time here, browse some pictures, and take a look at what healthy full grown discus are supposed to look like, ,then, with new eyes go back and look at yours. You will see what I mean, and it will become obvious what the end result of overstocking and poor water quality have done.


-Rick

[Jnotjane]

Having suffered from "collectoritis" in the past, I have to agree that the tank has far too many fish in it. To compound the issue, some of these fish may not be compatible, either in water conditions or temperament. You have some more aggressive species and fast/active swimmers, such as the festivums and Denison barbs (who need a minimum 4' tank length for swimming), mixed with fish that want more docile companions (discus). If you need further confirmation of this, read your own comments in your original post regarding the 2 discus that seem to always hide - its not normal behavior. You also stated the angelfish are near adult size - I used to keep angelfish, and healthy adults get to be 6" or more, roughly the same size as adult discus. Looking at the pics you posted, I am concerned at least 2 of the discus are stunted, and if the angles are no longer growing, they will be as well.

You came to the forum for advice, and you did come to the right place - these guys are a wealth of experienced information and you would be wise to listen to the advice. They are also very supportive - if you give them the respect they deserve. Its ultimately up to you to decide what you're going to do. But if you want your tank to be as successful as it could be, listen to what the posters say.

[discuspaul]

Michael - thanks for joining simplydiscus & welcome - we sincerely hope you'll stay with us if for nothing more than taking advantage of the excellent advice that is generally given here.

Please take the comments of the last few posters seriously, as they are correct and I echo their sentiments.

None of us would wish to experience the disastrous results which will very likely occur to you over time if you continue to maintain the overly risky incompatibility and untenably heavy bio-load situation you have developed to date. We're all hopeful you'll carefully consider this and take some remedial action to preclude your eventual disappointment with fish-keeping.

Best of luck to you.

[Andy27012]

I have just finished setting up a freshwater tank that I am planning on putting discus in. I started with the idea of a beautiful planted community tank and quickly realized that there is no such thing. There are only discus tanks with tank mates and that is what I ultimately have settled on. All of my fish and plants center around thriving in the same water conditions as discus and are considered non aggressive. As much as I hate to spend the money I see the nessecity in buying adult fish and not trying to raise juvies in a planted tank. After having read account after account of people trying to do things differently and the often disastrous results in which the fish payed the price I realized I needed to put the animals welfare first. I would say you got out standing advice so far but it won't matter if you don't heed it. I had much the same disposition as yourself when I first started reading and thought to myself "I have been keeping freshwater and saltwater fish for 15+ years" and then I realized there is no point in asking a question if you ignore the answer.

[Jnotjane]

"also on a different note,i find it interesting how people suggest "get a bigger tank" so easily,are fish tanks that cheap in america? where i live commercial fish tanks are a pretty expansive thing to have,and custom made are even more...."

New tanks can get quite expensive. However, with the instability our economy has had over the last few years, many hobbyist have had to sell their tanks (I had to sell all of my show tanks when I relocated from the West Coast to the East Coast). You can now buy a very good used set-up for very little money. Especially if you live in or near a large city. Craig's List is a wonderful thing...

[FishFanMan]

My first impression of your tank is that it's been setup for a long time and as such your substrate looks "filthy". Do you ever vacuum your substrate? If not, your tank certainly is not an ideal environment for the discus IMHO.

[madmisha]

So today my fish tank broke down,and as it exploded into pieces the water and the fish caught fire and burned :c.... sorry but i just had to respond to the daily news level of scaremongering that was going on in some comments.


pitdogg2
- plecos scare discus? sorry but i do not believe that.


bluelagoon
- that could be very possible,either way they are rather nice :)


ericNH
- thank you,and prehaps you're right. sadly i have no real option the remove the fast fish that may be whats bothering them,they are too fast :P (my barbs i guess,peaceful as they are,they are very active sweemers...)


nc0gnet0
- what do you mean by "pinched foreheads"? ilooked at the "what not to buy" pinched forehead discus example and mine is nothign like that :o
...as for water conditions or them being thin-i can assure you i test the water daily. and they get a daily feeding that leaves their bellys visibly very full. they are fed Tetra Discus, Frozen bloodworms,frozen artemia,frozen krill, tetra spirulina veg-granules and JBL Gala flakes.


Jnotjane
-
thank you for the constructive comment,
i agree that prehaps the fast swimmers bother the discus,even thought ive seen denisons and discus work in more then one tank before i set my own up....as for water parameters - while not ideal,im not giving any of the fish a situation too extreme for them to adapt to and be happy in it. rosy barbs for example love water a whole bunch of degrees colder then discus,and yet they thrive in my tank very well.....animals adapt-that is the way of nature.'
The reason i said the angels are nearing adult size was because of the speed in which they grow,its my bad,didnt say it right......the discus however,based on the eyes atleast,well,2 and maybe even 3 of them are stunned i guess....they havent changed almost at all since i got them....oh well,thats what i get for not doing proper research before buying my discus....


discuspaul
- thank you for the kind comment,however,i do not understand why do people keep saying my tank will crash,it is rather well taken care of,water changes,regular water tests,filter maintenance, feeding when its right and as much as needed.....and thanks to that,my bacteria nor my KH are going anywhere, and therefore,why would my PH go on a rollercoaster?


Andy27012

i would listen to the advice,if only they were relevant to the problem im having - which is 2 stressed discus. i came here seeking tips on helping them feel more at home, not fixing whats not broken and taking my whole tank apart.
hmmm,and it seems it is true......raising discus in planted may be a bit more of a difficult task then i thought....which in my case im going to find out on only 3 or so of my 7 discus,becuase 3 of them i bbought stunned and 1 is almost all grown up already.....oh well......


FishFanMan
i have a planted tank,my soil is just the way it should be,and for as much as i know,you dont really vaccum in planted tanks.


So now that ive answered all the comments.....i have been observing my tank for hours over the last couple of days,and saw no sign of aggression by any of the fish towards the discus...they dont really mind them,really,ive seen 0 interaction between the discus and any other fish.....nor there is aggression between the disucs themselves.
one of them is always upfront,the smaller pegion blood......the others travel through the tank,usually in groups....the ones that i said are the least active from time to time catch a ride with the group and stick in one corner,then split up between corners again.......they all do come out to eat tho,and eat a bunch....and all come eat right out of my hand....
also,i noticed the scardy two are seemingly producing a whole lot of slime....so much that bits of dust thrown in the water by the geo's eartheating get stuck all over these discus.....does anyone know what that means?

either way, i guess the best thing i can do for now is......nothing.
if theres something ive learned in med school,is that the less you interfere with a functioning biological system-the better.
the system is stable. most discus are happy,thought they have the defects i bought them with.....and the two that arent,as long as they come out to eat and swim from time to time,theres still hope they'll get used to it.
if any of them gets worse in any way,the only places i can move them to are a 20 gal empty tank i have around or back to the pet store,neither of which is a great choice....and getting rid of other fish,such as the denisons,isnt really an option for me at the moment either.

hopefully within a few months ill be in a more stable economic situation and will be able to afford a new,larger tank to make an amazon blackwater gentle gaint biotope i always wanted with geos,angels,discus,catfish and a few schools of eye candy tetras.....and maybe then ill rehome them there,if there will be a point to it by then.
thank you everyone for your suggestions even if they were way overboard.

[nc0gnet0]

http://s24.postimg.org/lsro6said/20150120_093644.jpg

Fish to the far left is very thin, pinched forehead. It is the worse of the bunch.

Second worse is the fish second from the top looking at the camera. Look how thin it becomes above the eyes and leading up to the dorsal, there is no "meat" on it's bones.

These will be the first to die. The blue diamond and one of the pigeons are starting to show signs of wasting as well.

I get it, there your fish, but it is nothing but ignorance and denial to state these are healthy fish. Now, take off the rose colored glass's and take another look.

[DISCUS STU]

http://s24.postimg.org/lsro6said/20150120_093644.jpg

Fish to the far left is very thin, pinched forehead. It is the worse of the bunch.

Second worse is the fish second from the top looking at the camera. Look how thin it becomes above the eyes and leading up to the dorsal, there is no "meat" on it's bones.

These will be the first to die. The blue diamond and one of the pigeons are starting to show signs of wasting as well.

I get it, there your fish, but it is nothing but ignorance and denial to state these are healthy fish. Now, take off the rose colored glass's and take another look.

Uuugh...a veritable Noah's Ark of Tropicals. The above quote is correct and right on. Discus are NOT community tank fish. If you want to do something like that, then you have to build the community around the Discus at the center and work with compatible fish, not vice versa.

If the Pigeon Bloods could show stress bars they would have them also.

[jmf3460]

the comment about not vacuuming a planted tank is only half correct. while people with planted tanks do not stick the gravel vac all the way down into the substrate, interfering with root substrates and pulling up essential elements, they do not let poo/mulm/waste just pile up on top of the substrate such as yours. personally I take the end off the vacuum and hover the hose by itself about an inch over the substrate which pulls up the lightweight waste that lays on top but leaves the actual substrate alone. I think it is obvious at this point that you will not be taking the advice of anyone on this forum, which leads me to ask what you came here for in the first place. your festivum cichlids might be small and harmless now, but once grown, if they do make it to adulthood, that will not be the case. I outright do not believe you that your nitrates are within a reasonable range. with that amount of fish and waste I am betting you have sky high nitrates...why don't you try selling some of your smaller fish?

[pitdogg2]

you have more than Pleco's in that tank that are nocturnal....

8 khuli loaches
5 hillstream loaches these are cool water fish so I see you did home work putting them in an 82* temps. Temperature is best kept from 65- 78F, avoid higher

are also more active in the dark . Pleco's do not scare Discus they harass them at night while they are trying to sleep and from my own knowledge try to get on them to feed off the slime coat.

As you know more than all here they're "YOUR" fish do what you like who cares but one question IF you have all the answers WHY ARE YOU HERE???
we should be learning from you.
I'm out

[DISCUS STU]

Not ALL Pleco's go after Discus for their slime coats, Gibbiceps, the most common do. Clown and Bristelnose do not, I also have Gold Nugget Plecos and they also do not harass my Discus.

I think I've lost one or two at night when they smashed themselves into hoods or tank walls when they were being fed on by Plecos. All I know is I found what had been perfectly, healthy full grown Discus dead when the lights went on, usually after having heard a loud smashing sound during the night.

[pitdogg2]

I have kept both Bristlenose and Rubberlipped aka Alvino aka bulldog while not all bristlenose do I have had several that yes pushed them around trying to find something on them while I watched. That explained why i was hearing what you heard in the night. I had just thought my cat was the culprit he does not bother my fish EXCEPT he just hates the pleco's I do not know why. He will sit for hours with me and just watch but when the pleco came out he would try very hard to get them. He does everything but get on top of the AQ Thankfully no dead fish but banged up pretty good none the less. Most Loaches also have little razors under/by their gill plates like most all Pleco type catfish and they use them in the vicinity of larger fish.

Now just let me state that the "Bristlenosed" I had back in the day are nothing like what are common today. Mine were black with white spots and I have not seen them in the LPS for years and years they also got bigger than the current BN we all see today.

[madmisha]

nc0gnet0
thank you very much again for the constructive and honest comment ! wish there would have been more of that.
the only thing is-i never stated these were healthy fish. what i did state,is that they are swimming and behaving normally.
reading stuff on this forum has really opened my eyes about how a healthy discus should look like,and just 3 of my fish just barely fit that description.....and 2 of them are hiding :\
do you have any idea why would they remain so thing? they are eating as much as they can,until they all baloon up and have a hard time breathing (no the nitrites or ammonia do not go up). i can assure you none of them looks worse then the day i got them at the store however.
also,any idea why do sometimes a couple of my "ok behaving discus" oversmile themselves to the point stuff like dust or even food get stuck all over them?


DISCUS STU

believe me or not,that is what i tried to do,before i got into discus,all i knew was that its a very gentle fish that needs very good water....and each of the fish in my tank i searched for before i got it to see if its good with discus.....the plan was to add discus last,after all the fish are in the tank and its stable.....sorry to hear about your experience with plecs.....luckily none of my L numbers went after my discus.....i know other,flexible and fast algea eaters like siamese algea eaters tend to do that sometimes,but i never thought of plecs striking at night O-o.....either way,my L numbers get their own food at nights,be it cucumber,shrimp or tabs.....they dont stay hungry enough i guess?


jmf3460
hmm,interesting,luckily i rarely ever see any poop "piling up" on my substrate....it kind of disolves into the soil within minutes.....and im not sure which one you have,but im using one of Amanos.....and they raise terrible dust clouds when bothered by anything more then a cory or a geo doing a tiny bit of digging....
as for the festivums,one of them is already an adult,and while i have seen him kill a couple of fish before (zerbra danios and a poor glass cat) after one kill it seems like they figure out this isnt food (thier natural food is zooplankton,plants and worms mostly-not fish),and leave the fish alone....they didnt even touch my tiny tetra embers......sorry if you got more aggressive festivums. they are natural partners of discus,angelfish and many tetras.you can also check the "seriously fish" datasheet on them.
"Peaceful cichlid, although becomes more aggressive when breeding. Can be kept with other peaceful cichlids such as geophagus and apistogramma and other peaceful community species such as tetras, barbs and small catfish."
also,you actually have every reason to believe my nitrates stay down....a 60-70% planted tank (more planted then these older photos i posted),with regular water changes....if anything,its nitrites you should think i might have jumping up and down,which is slightly the case-after feeding frozen food mainly,i have nitrite jumps up to 0.05-0.1 ml/l ...but it clears out very fast.
the reason i dont sell the smaller fish is...well,first because i dont really have anyone to sell them to,next is it will be a nightmare to take them out without damaging many plants...and finally because neither of them pose any threat to the discus. if the quanitity is the problem....well,i might concider taking a bunch of the smaller fish into the 20gal tank i have around,but im not sure it will do any good,if anything,theres a bigger chance that a whole lot of net-chasing will stress out the "ok" discus not to mention not help the stressed 2.


pitdogg2

yeah,the khulis are totally what may be an issue to the discus. not.
as for the hillstream loaches.....adaptation is a thing living creatures do in order to survive. yes the hillstreams prefer colder water,just like the gobbies i have prefer saltier and harder water....BUT....like all living things,if they are given enough time and are moved into softer/hotter water gradually enough,theyll be just fine.sure you cant take this to infinity,but a degree or two in either direction is no big deal.
and in case you failed to notice that,im here because im looking for advice on helping 2 out of 7 discus in a tank feel better,not for advice on fixing what isnt broken.

[discuspaul]

Regarding your final sentence above, the very best advice you can receive to help ALL of your discus feel better, is to place them, by themselves, in their own 75 gallon tank, and care for them well with frequent, large fresh water changes.
Not likely what you want to hear, but it is the best way to proceed, assuming you want to return those fish to good health, and maintain them that way.

As for your getting advice on fixing something that isn't broken, regrettably that's where you're missing the entire point of the numerous posts here. The reality is that, what you have currently set up has already seriously pushed the envelope and is well on the way to 'breaking up'. There have been no overtly serious negative results yet, likely because fish, as well as mammals and humans, can tolerate very poor living conditions for a time, sometimes quite a long time, without obvious serious suffering coming to the surface.

Your situation needs immediate remedial attention before the maximum stretching point is reached and the true 'break' occurs, as it most surely will if nothing is changed.
But I'm afraid this post too will continue to fall on deaf ears, as all of the previous advices here have as well. Sadly, we seem to be wasting your time, and you, ours.

[jmf3460]

Sadly,we seem to be wasting your time, and you, ours.
could not have said it better discuspaul... its like no matter what anyone says, op still thinks they know better. And it's sad because some of the others who could offer up real expert advise like yourself have left the thread as they know their advise will go rebutted if heard at all.

[discuspaul]

could not have said it better discuspaul... its like no matter what anyone says, op still thinks they know better. And it's sad because some of the others who could offer up real expert advise like yourself have left the thread as they know their advise will go rebutted if heard at all.

Thanks Jacklyn.
What I would really hope for though, is that even if Michael does nothing to change things, but does stick around the forum for a while, experiences what he no doubt will in due course, gets to recognizing the validity of these advices, and comes back on with a new attitude to learn some positive things about successful fish-keeping (he wouldn't even have to admit to making a mistake in the past) - that would be just ideal.

[madmisha]

Regarding your final sentence above, the very best advice you can receive to help ALL of your discus feel better, is to place them, by themselves, in their own 75 gallon tank, and care for them well with frequent, large fresh water changes.
Not likely what you want to hear, but it is the best way to proceed, assuming you want to return those fish to good health, and maintain them that way.

As for your getting advice on fixing something that isn't broken, regrettably that's where you're missing the entire point of the numerous posts here. The reality is that, what you have currently set up has already seriously pushed the envelope and is well on the way to 'breaking up'. There have been no overtly serious negative results yet, likely because fish, as well as mammals and humans, can tolerate very poor living conditions for a time, sometimes quite a long time, without obvious serious suffering coming to the surface.

Your situation needs immediate remedial attention before the maximum stretching point is reached and the true 'break' occurs, as it most surely will if nothing is changed.
But I'm afraid this post too will continue to fall on deaf ears, as all of the previous advices here have as well. Sadly, we seem to be wasting your time, and you, ours.

sorry if i seem a bit offensive in this post,but seriously.

maybe if you explained your big words,i would have taken the advice......but none here seems to do that,atleast none but nc0gnet0 who atleast tried.
if you feel your time is being wasted,why waste it on responding? if you truely desire to help,why not explain why you say what you say,or atleast give directions to tools that could help it be understood?

"Your situation needs immediate remedial attention before the maximum stretching point is reached and the true 'break' occurs, as it most surely will if nothing is changed." why would it break? "too many fish"? why too many fish? do my fish have some kind of proven psycological issues that make them suicidal when there are too many fish around? will this much of a bioload in a 'smal" water volume make the bacteria in my 3 filters die from being too exhausted?

also its so funny how you speak of me being close minded,while the only thing im hearing from too many people is "oh my god,too many fish,take your tank apart or everything will die".....when clearly there is almost always way more then 1 way to solve a problem.


jmf3460
well,you atleast,gave me every reason not to trust you and think i know better then you,mr "google search".

[Second Hand Pat]

Michael, you came here for help, right? Lets try this; change 80% of the water in the tank daily and vacuum the bottom with every water change.
Pat

[jmf3460]

well,you atleast,gave me every reason not to trust you and think i know better then you,mr "google search".

my dear you are right, you know better than all the members of this forum and all the advice that was offered up was poppycock. with all the knowledge you have, you should start your own forum and maybe those people will give you advice that you agree with and want to hear because surely all the advice given hear regarding taking fish out, removing the disgusting waste that is piled up on your substrate, dw and plants, getting a bigger tank, taking out certain fish that do not belong with discus and doing large daily water changes was all in vain. I feel sorry for your fish, and quite honestly I feel sorry for you because you came here seeking knowledge and your foolish pride and stubbornness has kept you from learning anything.

[Second Hand Pat]

Guys, lets not make this personal.

[jmf3460]

sorry pat, you can delete that if you want, I just needed to get it out.

[Departure]

Nice tank, I don't think the substrate looks old and dirty, its just the original colour of it.

[madmisha]

Michael, you came here for help, right? Lets try this; change 80% of the water in the tank daily and vacuum the bottom with every water change.
Pat
and ones again,here we have a very big suggestion......but no explanation of what would that achieve?
other then throwing my water bill over the roof,making me buy more water conditioner and stressing the fish a whole lot more......isnt the best tank a stable,cycled tank?


jmf3460
please dont bother commenting anymore,im not bothering to read your comments anyway.
also,you might want to look into this -
http://www.helpguide.org/articles/emotional-health/anger-management.htm


Departure

Aaaaand finally someone knows what amano soil is and what its supposed to look like after a while. yay.

[Second Hand Pat]

and ones again,here we have a very big suggestion......but no explanation of what would that achieve?
other then throwing my water bill over the roof,making me buy more water conditioner and stressing the fish a whole lot more......isnt the best tank a stable,cycled tank?

Ok, you said you did your research and wanted to help your unhealthy discus. So what do you suggest?? and what did you learn?

[Second Hand Pat]

You know what...I am tired of playing this game. For the sanity and in the best interests of the forum I am locking this thread.

[brewmaster15]

I agree with Pat Closing this thread, and want to add something as a general comment.

Frequently we see a new member post a thread here asking for help with an issue or tank full of issues. Well meaning Members here start to chime in with suggestions and opinions on the issues they see. At this point one of several things happens. In the best case scenario, the advise seeker recognizes the fact they need help, came to this Discus Specific Forum to get help, and learns from those trying to help. I'd like to say that happens all the time..but it doesn't.

Often what happens though is the advice seeker gets advice that doesn't fit with what they want to hear, and the arguments and pointless debates start..These in turn spiral out of control and cause the forum to look inhospitable to novices, at the same time irritating the forums experienced members.

In this thread... there were some good posts (2,3,5,8,9,10,14,16,22,24,27,28,29,34,35,39) and some not so good ones.

It has got to stop. I am asking all SimplyDiscus members to please stop feeding into these threads. Its a waste of your time, the forums staff time, and it just sours the forum. Rather than get involved in these threads in this fashion. Post your thoughts, and walk away if it the person does not want to accept your advice. Do not engage in pointless arguments. If the member wants to take the advice its there...if not ..thats their problem. The fact that posted your views on the subject is enough..
. Getting your self worked up and possibly breaking the forums rules over it accomplishes absolutely nothing, and may put you at odds with the forum management. Theres plenty of members that need your help and will gladly accept it. Focus on those.

I know this won't sit well with some members here...but you need to tone down your responses and the way you interact with members. I expect people to be civil and mature on this forum, even when dealing with a challenging or difficult member. If you can't do that ignore the member. Add them to your ignore list and let me and my staff deal with them in an appropriate fashion.


Thanks, '
al